Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die' • Hacker News Board

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#51

Post by lists » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #34

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of moral hazards around prostitution, and banning it outright makes all of them worse . It makes the women involved criminals and deprives them of legal protection when they're abused. The only reason to make prostitution a crime is if you think prostitutes themselves are committing evil. That is 100% a religious position with no rational support.

How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults feeding a drug addiction? At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?

> How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution?

That's already illegal. You've just made discovering it harder.

> And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution?

Also already illegal. You've made discovering it harder.

> And then adults feeding a drug addiction?

That's actually none of your business.

> At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?

There's no need since you don't actually solve coerced prostitution by making it illegal.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#52

Post by epicureanideal » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #34

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of moral hazards around prostitution, and banning it outright makes all of them worse . It makes the women involved criminals and deprives them of legal protection when they're abused. The only reason to make prostitution a crime is if you think prostitutes themselves are committing evil. That is 100% a religious position with no rational support.

How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults feeding a drug addiction? At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?

The first two are obviously immoral. But the last one?

A lot of adults work jobs for a wage to feed their drug habit. Should we make that illegal too?

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#53

Post by djsumdog » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

jasonkostempski wrote: post #36

skookumchuck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governmental attempts to suppress "immoral" but natural human behavior has been tried for thousands of years and has never worked. I.e. attempts to stop: * drinking * gambling * prostitution * drugs * adultery * homosexuality * lending money * black markets

Lending money?

I suggest the book Debt: The First 5,000 Years. Almost all early religious entities, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, condemned the concept of using money to make money as immoral. The belief was that money was meant to exchange debt, not make people wealthy off that debt.

Today Islam still holds this as a majority view in many places (not universally). I'm simplifying it a lot, so I really recommend the book. There is a strong correlation between debt and guilt. In Christian doctrine, they're very interchangeable (forgive us our debts/sins as we forgive those who are indebted to/have sinned against us).

Guilt, Sin and debt are the same word in many ancient languages, including old English. Guilt and debt are still the same word in German.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#54

Post by afejowj » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #28

ihsw2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. Women are having sex with men whom they otherwise wouldn't have sex with -- we should be removing the need for sex work rather than accommodating it. Sex "for survival," child prostitution, sex trafficking -- none of these go away when the stigma and illegality are removed and if anything it gets worse because clients just a…

> Prostitution is abhorrent to the women's rights movement -- it is another tool of oppression. One of the core tenets of feminism is that women have a right to do what they please with their own bodies. A lot of bad things come out of prostitution. That needs to be addressed and policed. Jailing the women practicing it to survive fixes nothing .

If "a fuck for a buck" or "sex to survive" is their only option, it's not really "do what they please with their own bodies."

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#55

Post by patentlyobvious » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #34

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of moral hazards around prostitution, and banning it outright makes all of them worse . It makes the women involved criminals and deprives them of legal protection when they're abused. The only reason to make prostitution a crime is if you think prostitutes themselves are committing evil. That is 100% a religious position with no rational support.

How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution? And then adults feeding a drug addiction? At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?

>How does your comment fit with children being drugged and forced into prostitution?

Kidnapping is already a serious crime.

>And then adults being drugged and forced into prostitution?

Say it with me, kidnapping is already a crime.

>And then adults feeding a drug addiction?

A legal and regulated sex industry will no longer provide the 'safe haven' for addicts that the illegal one does today. Note - I'm not claiming it will eliminate it.

>At which point of this ladder do you start to say "no, this is where we need to make it illegal"?

We need not start. By your logic, we should outlaw cars for all the deaths they cause.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#56

Post by afejowj » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #46

ihsw2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution destroys the sexual autonomy of women by introducing economic incentives to performing sexual acts, this the opposite of sexual freedom.

So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.

It's not a choice if its the only option.

The real shit argument is exactly that it's just "more capitalism"

Morons be getting further if they advocated collectively for UBI + universal healthcare and not a bunch of customizations to the shit stew we're all eating.

Adding a little seasoning for the preferences of group_x isn't really improving much

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#57

Post by ihsw2 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #46

ihsw2 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prostitution destroys the sexual autonomy of women by introducing economic incentives to performing sexual acts, this the opposite of sexual freedom.

So anybody with a job is a slave to economics? Isn't this just capitalism/free markets in general? Seems like you're saying women have more freedom by being told they cannot do something that elevates them economically. Women are still free to have non-paid sex with whomever they want. But if they choose to make money doing it as well, I believe that is another form of empowerment.

Consent is removed by economic force rather than physical force. Performing sexual acts is much more than plain physical labor like lawn maintenance.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#58

Post by orthecreedence » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

pastage wrote: post #47

Notorious_BLT wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do all kinds of jobs they wouldn't otherwise do for survival. Sex isn't magically different from backbreaking manual labor.

Back breaking manual labor is not legal, or rather you can be forced to pay rather steep fines for doing it. (The definition of the words we use is key here)

Back-breaking isn't generally used in the literal sense, but to describe something very difficult. Legality is regional, and often doesn't apply to contractors or, say, a farm owner.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#59

Post by kartan » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:30 PM UTC

dilap wrote: post #25

patrickaljord wrote: post #19

I hate to use the argument but it's really sad that in 2018 we're still trying to make voluntary sex work illegal when every studies show that it 1) doesn't work and 2) makes everything worse for everyone involved. Also, the fact that the very president is known to have used prostitutes and that Washington politicians are well known to be big customers makes this hypocrisy really infuriating.

it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

> "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

This is true, only if individuals have a good education, job opportunities, a broad enough safety net, etc.

Otherwise, you are just pushing abused women or women with no resources to submit to sexual servitude.

When you have a high correlation between prostitution and poverty, you are just realizing that that choice was never there.

A good approach is to punish clients instead of prostitutes. This way you help to shift power balance and protect prostitutes that denounce abuse.

There is no freedom without a possibility of choice.

Re: Sex workers fear violence as US cracks down on online ads: 'Girls will die'

#60

Post by cornholio » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

wallace_f wrote: post #35

dilap wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's also just an absurd restriction from a perspective that values individual liberty. "my body, my choice" "consenting adults" -- all that goes out the window when it's sex for cash? it makes no sense.

Yep, that's the absolute BS about it. That somehow government should intervene in your personal life choices that affect no one other than consenting adults. However, I would hope no one has to resort to unwanted sex work to afford life and liberty--just for a simple roof over their head, for food and basic healthcare. That's what I fear with legalizing prostitution... I just personally think the idea of knowing peop…

On the other hand, people faced with economic hardships that are choosing prostitution do so at the expense of some other choice that, to them, is even more horrible - otherwise they wouldn't do it. It's hard to argue that prostitution is always a damaging choice that should always be forbidden like selling your organs, selling yourself into slavery, highly dangerous drugs etc.

This is why I think the economic constraints argument is specious here, it is still a form of imposing one's moral values onto others; unless you are willing to provide a living wage out of your own money to anybody opting to renounce prostitution, denying them that option means subjecting them to something even more horrible in their view, only because you think it's not.