Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#101

Post by sametmax » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

alxlaz wrote: post #82

sametmax wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And I doubt it's a mass exodus either. If you read "Surely you're joking Mr Feynman", the author clearly states that when making the bomb, they had a lot of fun. Lots of budgets. Only smart people. Working on the coolest projects. He even plays with the censorship and security practices. They never really thought too hard about the ethic part of it: they need to end the war, and that's it. They really said "…

Feynman's own country, though, was at war; when he was recruited into the team that would eventually work on the Manhattan project, the Pearl Harbour attack had already taken place and irrevocably wounded and scarred the American public consciousness. Many other members of the Manhattan project were from countries or communities that had suffered tremendously at the hands of the Axis' power. War in Europe had been ra…

You can replace facebook with google, apple, ms or amazon and you have the same picture though.

And they got the best projects and the most money.

Yet when I said to my relatives, 5 years ago, that I refused an interview from google and facebook, they questioned my sanity.

I don't pretend to have the moral high ground here, as i made enought bad things in my life, but this kind of pondering work opportunities doesn't happen enough imo.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#102

Post by neves » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

It is always important to consider the impact of your job in society.

Sorry for the following link. Sure, it is not the same, but this is the great debate of "following orders": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem

I'd also like references about the ethical debate about the Manhattan Project where the greatest minds of humanity gathered to develop WMD.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#103

Post by tajen » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:36 PM UTC

notjtrig wrote: post #67

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

We saw the same thing after Snowden, people were leaving the NSA in mass after the average person became aware of the situation. Data collection is what enabled the Nazis to find Jews and homosexuals, the next mass percution can be more specific than race. Anti-vaxers, pizzagaters, people who don't watch anough TV. As the world becomes more aware of the dangers of algorithms and AI, Facebook engineers are rethinking…

> Anti-vaxers, pizzagaters, people who don't watch anough TV.

Let’s be honest: What we’re after is Trump voters, Alex Jones/Milo fans, supporters of James Damore, non-feminists, non-supporters of Emmy Awards stances and generally all people who don’t laugh enough at Steven Colbert jokes.

It was made very clear, for example at Google, that managers are building blacklists, and that HR supports them.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#104

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #29

saagarjha wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How sure are you about that?

As sure as it's still a developer's market and FB controversy doesn't erase technological accomplishments of individuals. Those accomplishments are easily untied from the politics of the situation. You may lose a small amount of jobs that would come your way, but you'd still likely have dozens of offers to choose from from companies that don't view you as 'tainted'. Software engineering doesn't have the same ethical…

>Software engineering doesn't have the same ethical consequences and motivations as other fields (medicine, law, etc.)

All occupations have the same ethical concerns, they're just a function of how much money can be made.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#105

Post by neves » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #39

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

Exactly. And I doubt it's a mass exodus either. If you read "Surely you're joking Mr Feynman", the author clearly states that when making the bomb, they had a lot of fun. Lots of budgets. Only smart people. Working on the coolest projects. He even plays with the censorship and security practices. They never really thought too hard about the ethic part of it: they need to end the war, and that's it. They really said "…

Don't forget that a lot of them were refugees in need of a good job to sustain their family.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#106

Post by spinlock » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC

Is there any kind of organization for engineers that supports these types of ethical issues? I recently resigned from a job because because of similar privacy concerns and I found it really hard to talk to anyone. My situation was a very clear violation of California law but everyone I talked to said the same thing, "if you blow the whistle, you'll never work again."

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#107

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #64

ThemalSpan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this issue much more pressing in the defense industry. I (thankfully) have the freedom to choose where I work. I will never willingly work on weapon systems. There are those that do though. Engineers who design things to kill other people. What the actual fuck.

So the fact that Galkovskiy, the engineer who perfected the Katyusha rocket launcher, decided to work on a weapon that played a major role in defeating Nazi Germany offends you?

Your argument is not on great footing if you have to reach 70 years back to WW2 in order to find an ethical example of working for the War Industry.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#108

Post by FilterSweep » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:40 PM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

The cynic in me wonders if this is just grandiose self-promotion as a bargaining chip for the next datamining job.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#109

Post by wccrawford » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:41 PM UTC

dbt00 wrote: post #55

paulie_a wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will pass on a resume that includes Facebook.

Bias: I've refused to work on any adtech revenue business, and I've passed on opportunities at Uber multiple times due to ... moral and ethical concerns. I wouldn't hold experience at Uber or FB against any applicant.

Agreed. And besides that, I decided I didn't want to work for FB long ago, even if they somehow came calling... But it wasn't about ethics. Now it'd be about ethics, but I wasn't even aware they were doing anything unethical until now.

I'd expect people working there to know the deal a bit better, but even so they might not be directly involved with anything unethical, and even if they knew about unethical things, they might not have had an opportunity to switch jobs.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#110

Post by alxlaz » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

sametmax wrote: post #101

alxlaz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman's own country, though, was at war; when he was recruited into the team that would eventually work on the Manhattan project, the Pearl Harbour attack had already taken place and irrevocably wounded and scarred the American public consciousness. Many other members of the Manhattan project were from countries or communities that had suffered tremendously at the hands of the Axis' power. War in Europe had been ra…

You can replace facebook with google, apple, ms or amazon and you have the same picture though. And they got the best projects and the most money. Yet when I said to my relatives, 5 years ago, that I refused an interview from google and facebook, they questioned my sanity. I don't pretend to have the moral high ground here, as i made enought bad things in my life, but this kind of pondering work opportunities doesn't…

> And they got the best projects and the most money.

I think what they don't have is their CEO testifying in front of the Congress after building a platform whose hunger for money made it an exceptional weapon against society. Smart, young people start avoiding companies only after public perception turns against them. Facebook is closer to that than Amazon or even Google.