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Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

businessinsider.com

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Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#81

Post by KC8ZKF »

leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

Or perhaps, over time, they have changed their minds. The principle of charity, it seems to me, requires that we take them at their word in the absence of evidence otherwise.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#82

Post by alxlaz »

sametmax wrote: post #39
leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

Exactly. And I doubt it's a mass exodus either. If you read "Surely you're joking Mr Feynman", the author clearly states that when making the bomb, they had a lot of fun. Lots of budgets. Only smart people. Working on the coolest projects. He even plays with the censorship and security practices. They never really thought too hard about the ethic part of it: they need to end the war, and that's it. They really said "…

Feynman's own country, though, was at war; when he was recruited into the team that would eventually work on the Manhattan project, the Pearl Harbour attack had already taken place and irrevocably wounded and scarred the American public consciousness. Many other members of the Manhattan project were from countries or communities that had suffered tremendously at the hands of the Axis' power. War in Europe had been raging for more than two years. Fun or no fun, you can find motivation for working on weapons in a lot of things: the next Pearl Harbour attack could be against your home town, the next ones to be sent to labour camps back at home could be your only surviving relatives, the next casualties of war could be your high school friends.

Barring a couple of teams that work on interesting projects, Facebook has little other than money and reputation to throw at people. The former isn't that hard to find in our field, though, and the latter is kindda fickly. Facebook may well keep its talent pool constant, but largely by having people for whom the latter (or, more generally, what they work on and what impact it has) is important replaced by people for whom it is not.

Fortunately (for most of us, at least), the kind of talent that money, disregard for ethics and public doublespeak attracts is pretty self-destructive in the long run.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#83

Post by francisofascii »

paulie_a wrote: post #32
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working for FB itself during this controversy won't tarnish your resume anyway.

I will pass on a resume that includes Facebook.

Can you explain why?

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#84

Post by meri_dian »

While data security is an issue Facebook must reckon with, it is not the major issue Facebook's existence poses to democracies around the world.

The real issue in my mind is that the platform can be used by bad actors to spread misinformation. It's as if during WWII the Nazi's had the ability to publish editorials in leading newspapers throughout the US.

While this is a feature/bug of the internet in general, the vast scale of Facebook and its near ubiquitous use amongst the general voting public in the US and other democratic nations make it the most potent vector through which a bad actor like Russia could spread propaganda and misinformation.

I'm not sure the recent move to label political advertisements as such will do much to safeguard us from misinformation.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#85

Post by mattnewton »

asteli wrote: post #70
kbd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Count me as one. Who can say if I'd have passed their interview process, but I was recruited by them and immediately said "no thanks", and told their recruiter I didn't like that they subjected their users to psychological experiments without their knowledge[1]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/30/technology/facebook-tinke...

There are a lot of reasons to dislike Facebook, but I don't think their (public) research on the effect of social media on their users is one. You're exposed to psychological experiments on every large website you use, although typically the psychometrics are more limited to things like "did you click the button that gives us money?" instead of questions like "how does the emotional content of the news feed affect ou…

I buy it was done in good faith, (and it’s unfortunate that the lesson they took away from it may have been just to keep their mouth shut). The lesson here though was that people at Facebook weren’t aware of the responsibility the data they have puts on them.

It showed a surprising lack of awareness and care for the users of their platform. Regardless of the intention it was grossly irresponsible to do the experiment in that way. The kind of data that Facebook had and was manipulating is completely more personal and completely different than getting people to click a buy button, a distinction lost on them. We’re talking about people’s relationships with their family, their old friends, and we’re talking about cries for help or compassion that were suppressed to see how it would affect users mood, not just engagement.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#86

Post by peoplewindow »

saagarjha wrote: post #49
tenpies wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Facebook? The ones that help get TRUMP ELECTED?" I think that would be enough to get you blacklisted in certain California crowds.

Please don't be flippant. You know the what we mean here: the perception that those who work at Facebook are lacking in ethics or moral fiber. This isn't about politics.

Yeah, but what drives that perception? It doesn't seem to be rooted in any coherent theory of ethics. After all, users happily agreed to their data being used, they weren't forced to sign up to social networks en-masse, they weren't forced to install tons of crappy apps or agree to grant them permission to their friends data. They weren't denied any information or lied to.

So the normal rules of ethics that would lead to conclusions about immoral behaviour don't apply here. Privacy isn't something that should be forced on someone. It's their life, their decisions, their information. They can do what they want with it. In reality virtually no users care about privacy and will happily upload their lives or even broadcast it to the whole world given the slightest chance.

As such, it's hard to conclude what exactly Facebook employees are supposed to have done wrong here.

That leaves "OMG YOU GOT TRUMP ELECTED", which isn't going to convince the roughly 50% of Americans who voted for him. After all, they won't believe that Trump voters were mindlessly reprogrammed into voting for Trump against their will by social media. And a lot of Clinton voters won't believe that either.

I expect a whole lot of virtue signalling from the same Silicon Valley types who foam at the mouth if someone says there aren't many women coders because on average they choose to be teachers instead. And not much else.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#87

Post by cocacola1 »

eric_b wrote: post #33
ThemalSpan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this issue much more pressing in the defense industry. I (thankfully) have the freedom to choose where I work. I will never willingly work on weapon systems. There are those that do though. Engineers who design things to kill other people. What the actual fuck.

That's great that you've got a set of principles that you live by, and are able to stick to them. However, your principles are not everyone's principles, and what you consider moral and ethical is not universal. Grellas had a great comment on working for the military industrial complex a few days ago, that I think is worth a read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16759324

There's some things that are considered immoral or unethical that are fairly universal, especially in developed countries. We're against slavery, rape, murder, etc. Sure, there are perpetrators, but don't wave them off and say "Oh, they just thought differently, give them a break!" We punish them, which is all that can be hoped for.

Some things exist in a gray area (for now) so while some people might argue that its righteous or necessary to do something, there's no problem with an opposition to such an ideal shoving it back.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#88

Post by qaq »

sametmax wrote: post #39
leggomylibro wrote: post #7

This is sort of surprising information, from my view. The information about their business model and data practices which people seem to be so surprised by was/is common knowledge among people who work with these technology stacks. Going to work for Facebook seemed like it would have meant supporting and abetting those practices; they were very clear about what they were doing, and the roles were in no way ambiguous.…

Exactly. And I doubt it's a mass exodus either. If you read "Surely you're joking Mr Feynman", the author clearly states that when making the bomb, they had a lot of fun. Lots of budgets. Only smart people. Working on the coolest projects. He even plays with the censorship and security practices. They never really thought too hard about the ethic part of it: they need to end the war, and that's it. They really said "…

Well people might be valuing stock price risks and not making decision based on ethical concerns.

Re: Facebook Employees Are Quitting or Switching Departments Over Ethical Concerns

#89

Post by andyjohnson0 »

eric_b wrote: post #33
ThemalSpan wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this issue much more pressing in the defense industry. I (thankfully) have the freedom to choose where I work. I will never willingly work on weapon systems. There are those that do though. Engineers who design things to kill other people. What the actual fuck.

That's great that you've got a set of principles that you live by, and are able to stick to them. However, your principles are not everyone's principles, and what you consider moral and ethical is not universal. Grellas had a great comment on working for the military industrial complex a few days ago, that I think is worth a read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16759324

Lots of words in the linked comment, but it still amounts to making machines that mechanise the process of killing people.
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