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ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

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Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#81

Post by 928jf0923 »

ethbro wrote: post #49
drawkbox wrote: post #20

The ISPs are in an all out attack on competitors like Facebook/Google/Netflix/others. ISPs bought their way into the market with the ISP privacy protections being removed [1][2] and net neutrality being killed rather than innovating. The privacy protections being removed helped lessen the FCC grip on privacy and helped their case, with legislators not the people, to remove FCC net neutrality protections. It is obviou…

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

So long as you acknowledge that's an intuitive opinion on your part, sure.

I'd be perfectly happy to see regulation around Facebook and Google's use of data they've ALREADY COLLECTED under agreement.

An ISP is looking to manipulate willy-nilly (that is, in whichever direction the financial outlook looks best from their perspective). This is more concerning to me for what should be obvious reason.

I don't have a Facebook, and don't use Google except for email and occasionally.

ISPs action impact all users. Facebook and Google mostly impacts the idiots that signed up with them.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#82

Post by 928jf0923 »

ethbro wrote: post #53
saagarjha wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). GDPR is regulation, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

And HN comments haven't trended neutral to critical on GDPR?

I don't know, have they?

You're asking questions like you're writing headlines for a clickbait rag.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#83

Post by walshemj »

tomc1985 wrote: post #78
drawkbox wrote: post #20

The ISPs are in an all out attack on competitors like Facebook/Google/Netflix/others. ISPs bought their way into the market with the ISP privacy protections being removed [1][2] and net neutrality being killed rather than innovating. The privacy protections being removed helped lessen the FCC grip on privacy and helped their case, with legislators not the people, to remove FCC net neutrality protections. It is obviou…

ISPs should be happy with their status as utilities providers.

They also now are part of the CNI - so you play by the rules or you don't get to play at all.

Possibly google fb et all ought to start lobbying for LLU and for full competion in the local loop.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#84

Post by ethbro »

drawkbox wrote: post #76
ethbro wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ISPs are your gateway to the internet you can't route around and web/mobile/content companies are built on top and can be routed around. We disagree on a core premise then. I contend that at scale, web companies can't be routed around. At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers, something is wrong. When the majority of new tech…

> At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers But you just admitted you can route around them. Let me know when you route around your ISP. Your line of thinking is basically the ISP narrative of "Hey web companies are doing lots of bad stuff, why can't we? And why can't we do so without building any product or anything anyone want…

> Let me know when you route around your ISP.

Right now?

I can VPN to Switzerland. And I can use a TLS encrypted channel to most of the Internet.

Until ISPs start banning / slow laning encryption or mandating ISP-controlled computers, hostile network links are a solved problem.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#85

Post by ethbro »

joe_the_user wrote: post #73
ethbro wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. Technically, "Big web" would be perhaps a structural oligopoly [1] or you could say the market has monopolistic competition[2]. they're protected by the network effect, they provide unique products that are hard to duplicate. They are not actual monopolies as economists define them (…

So your contention is that structural oligopolies (or markets with monopolistic competition) should not be regulated?

I'd be curious to know why.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#86

Post by drawkbox »

ethbro wrote: post #84
drawkbox wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At minimum, when I have to run blacklist filters to avoid my third party web traffic ending up logged on Google or Facebook servers But you just admitted you can route around them. Let me know when you route around your ISP. Your line of thinking is basically the ISP narrative of "Hey web companies are doing lots of bad stuff, why can't we? And why can't we do so without building any product or anything anyone want…

> Let me know when you route around your ISP. Right now? I can VPN to Switzerland. And I can use a TLS encrypted channel to most of the Internet. Until ISPs start banning / slow laning encryption or mandating ISP-controlled computers, hostile network links are a solved problem.

Just wait til ISPs want to sell you VPNs... for [insert random marketing benefit like 'security', 'privacy', 'discounts', 'no data cap', 'cheaper' that hides throttling competitors and allows them to install an app on your devices to do whatever they want including scraping, which many people will fall for due to abused instilled trust from their privileged network gateway position they bribed to attain]

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#87

Post by Kalium »

ethbro wrote: post #49
drawkbox wrote: post #20

The ISPs are in an all out attack on competitors like Facebook/Google/Netflix/others. ISPs bought their way into the market with the ISP privacy protections being removed [1][2] and net neutrality being killed rather than innovating. The privacy protections being removed helped lessen the FCC grip on privacy and helped their case, with legislators not the people, to remove FCC net neutrality protections. It is obviou…

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

> I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately falls down to "ISPs are unpopular, web companies are popular."

The natural, physical costs to creating an ISP creates a ready parallel to other, established natural monopolies. Electrical and water suppliers spring readily to mind.

Big Web companies do not have the same natural barriers to entry, which suggests that other models may be available.

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#88

Post by ethbro »

drawkbox wrote: post #75
smsm42 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ISPs sell a commodity. I have yet to see a popular commodity supplier - steel companies, oil companies, coal companies, insurance companies, big retail stores... All have been vilified.

> ISPs sell a commodity. Agreed, you might even say ISPs/networks are a utility now, though ISPs seem to not think that. The difference here is that the ISP utility/commodity is not only a local monopoly with false competition but they are trying to leverage that trusted position to sell you other things and wants to be an ad network with your private data. Your oil/steel/water company isn't trying to get you to sign…

ISPs know they're a commodity, which is why everything they're doing is a struggle to avoid that trap.

I guess I look at ISPs as acting in their own best interest rather than out of malice.

Essentially every initiative they've tried for the last few decades comes straight from HBR [1]. They aren't bad ideas, they're just almost all anti-consumer.

And their options for innovation are limited (as publicly traded companies). The thing we (HN) would like ("faster internet for cheaper") is the most expensive for them to build.

So naturally they gravitate towards VOIP or mobile content, because those things produce better ROI.

The only way we'd get the ISPs we want is if they were prohibited from being anything other than utilities. Although the irony there is that they'd likely find it difficult to access the necessary capital to build super fast networks. (Or in other words, the blood tracking money subsidizes faster internet connections)

[1] https://hbr.org/2007/12/how-to-avoid-the-commodity-tra

Re: ISPs Aim to Use Facebook Fracas to Saddle Silicon Valley with Crappy New Laws

#90

Post by [deleted] »

Kalium wrote: post #87
ethbro wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it ironic that two classes of monopolies (ISPs and Big Web) are being discussed here with diametrically opposed recommendations. For ISPs, the council is that they should be regulated (e.g. net neutrality, data privacy). For Facebook, Google, et al. the council is that they shouldn't be regulated (e.g. EU GDPR). I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately…

> I have yet to see a cogent argument justifying that difference. My suspicion is that it ultimately falls down to "ISPs are unpopular, web companies are popular." The natural, physical costs to creating an ISP creates a ready parallel to other, established natural monopolies. Electrical and water suppliers spring readily to mind. Big Web companies do not have the same natural barriers to entry, which suggests that o…

[deleted]
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