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Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

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Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#51

Post by OpenDrapery »

elvirs wrote: post #46

I dont understand whats the outrage is about. Bay Area / San Francisco housing market is tough because that area is special. Its special because its home to world's most innovative companies that pays its staff world's highest salaries. So it basically became an exclusive neighborhood for the wealthiest and most talented (demanded) people. And it stay special because those who are not in demand cant afford to live th…

Interesting that you think SF is special because Google is there. What made it special before Google existed? What made it special before computers existed?

It's geography, climate, and culture make it special. Tech companies don't get to show up and stake an ownership claim on this stuff. If the hippies told the hipsters "we were here first!", they wouldn't be entirely wrong.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#52

Post by elvirs »

OpenDrapery wrote: post #51
elvirs wrote: post #46

I dont understand whats the outrage is about. Bay Area / San Francisco housing market is tough because that area is special. Its special because its home to world's most innovative companies that pays its staff world's highest salaries. So it basically became an exclusive neighborhood for the wealthiest and most talented (demanded) people. And it stay special because those who are not in demand cant afford to live th…

Interesting that you think SF is special because Google is there. What made it special before Google existed? What made it special before computers existed? It's geography, climate, and culture make it special. Tech companies don't get to show up and stake an ownership claim on this stuff. If the hippies told the hipsters "we were here first!", they wouldn't be entirely wrong.

tech companies are not the only thing making SF special but they are the main reason behind raise in housing cost of recent decades and turning the area into even more exclusive than they were before.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#53

Post by fricat1ve »

bradlys wrote: post #19
fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

>I know it'll never hit the ballot.

Why so fatalistic? California is probably the most open state in the union in terms of citizens having the ability to place ballot measures.

That's how Prop 13 got passed in the first place :)

https://ballotpedia.org/Signature_requirements_for_ballot_me...

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#54

Post by fricat1ve »

SlowBro wrote: post #44
bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

> On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. Correct me if I’m wrong. Doesn’t this scenario also describe handing down family farms? If so, repealing this law could be a terrible double-edged sword. Lots of families could lose the farm when mom and pop die, unable to afford the tax bill. I could…

I have heard this argument advanced against the estate tax. But even if you eliminate the reassessment loop hole the property tax rates are still cappped at the 1-ish percent level.

A family farm that can't afford 1% of its assessed value doesn't sound like a very viable business.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#55

Post by SlowBro »

fricat1ve wrote: post #54
SlowBro wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. Correct me if I’m wrong. Doesn’t this scenario also describe handing down family farms? If so, repealing this law could be a terrible double-edged sword. Lots of families could lose the farm when mom and pop die, unable to afford the tax bill. I could…

I have heard this argument advanced against the estate tax. But even if you eliminate the reassessment loop hole the property tax rates are still cappped at the 1-ish percent level. A family farm that can't afford 1% of its assessed value doesn't sound like a very viable business.

So if they're scraping by maybe due to lean years such as during the recent drought, you would be comfortable with the family business being shut down? Farming is typically a low-margin business.

Over taxation is one of the primary stated reasons some rural Californians are proposing to split the state.[1] So perhaps a solution is to allow farmers to govern themselves and tax land owners appropriately, and big city dwellers to govern themselves, taxing land owners appropriately.

(Note that I don't live in CA so I am neither for nor against. Simply stating facts.)

[1] https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/720c6a07-3594-44b7-8098-94f...

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#56

Post by fricat1ve »

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22
bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

So now it's "redistribution" to have people pay the same tax rates on their property? Oyy...

I was born here too but your arguments sound a lot like special pleading.

Do you really think that a tax loophole is "earned"?

It doesn't support property ownership anymore because it incentivizes people to hang onto and rent out properties that haven't been reassessed.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#57

Post by fricat1ve »

SlowBro wrote: post #55
fricat1ve wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard this argument advanced against the estate tax. But even if you eliminate the reassessment loop hole the property tax rates are still cappped at the 1-ish percent level. A family farm that can't afford 1% of its assessed value doesn't sound like a very viable business.

So if they're scraping by maybe due to lean years such as during the recent drought, you would be comfortable with the family business being shut down? Farming is typically a low-margin business. Over taxation is one of the primary stated reasons some rural Californians are proposing to split the state.[1] So perhaps a solution is to allow farmers to govern themselves and tax land owners appropriately, and big city d…

Are we talking about real agribusiness in the Central Valley or are we talking about a couple "family farms" in Cupertino or wherever?

In the former case, are these people are at any competitive disadvantage relative to rural areas of other states?

As for the latter case....well how much sentimentality are you going to attach to land uses from the past? Sure, Silicon Valley is built on some of the highest quality farmland in the country but most of the farms are gone now. If you want to keep whatever few are left there are probably more targeted ways of doing that.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#58

Post by SlowBro »

fricat1ve wrote: post #57
SlowBro wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if they're scraping by maybe due to lean years such as during the recent drought, you would be comfortable with the family business being shut down? Farming is typically a low-margin business. Over taxation is one of the primary stated reasons some rural Californians are proposing to split the state.[1] So perhaps a solution is to allow farmers to govern themselves and tax land owners appropriately, and big city d…

Are we talking about real agribusiness in the Central Valley or are we talking about a couple "family farms" in Cupertino or wherever? In the former case, are these people are at any competitive disadvantage relative to rural areas of other states? As for the latter case....well how much sentimentality are you going to attach to land uses from the past? Sure, Silicon Valley is built on some of the highest quality far…

Agribusiness that is run by families passing down the family trade. I just updated my comment fleshing out my thoughts more, please have a look.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#59

Post by fricat1ve »

SlowBro wrote: post #58
fricat1ve wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we talking about real agribusiness in the Central Valley or are we talking about a couple "family farms" in Cupertino or wherever? In the former case, are these people are at any competitive disadvantage relative to rural areas of other states? As for the latter case....well how much sentimentality are you going to attach to land uses from the past? Sure, Silicon Valley is built on some of the highest quality far…

Agribusiness that is run by families passing down the family trade. I just updated my comment fleshing out my thoughts more, please have a look.

I see. I'm just not sure they have so much of a dog in the Prop 13 fight per se. Land values there haven't risen to nearly the levels as in coastal communities. And there are all sorts of special rules for ag taxes that I'm not really familiar with. The Central Valley farming community definitely leans very rightward and sees themselves as a somewhat aggrieved minority in California.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#60

Post by nontechdude1 »

wjnqx wrote: post #31
nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

If housing is only for people who've already been in a place, why do we allow children? Your argument is patently absurd. Especially in a growing state like California, accommodating newcomers is good if not necessary. I was born here, and I want to live in a place that welcomes outsiders and is affordable for all who want to live here. Don't you see you're just the beneficiary of a pyramid scheme? A tax raise is not…

i don't want california to grow. the traffic is too bad and people are less happy. in fact, i've been cheering trump deporting all 3 million illegal immigrants here because it's a legal way to alleviate the housing crisis.

CA was an environmental gem and still is to an extent. i don't want to invite the whole world here. i dont want immigrants, rich and poor, coming here and forcing out people who were born here.

i believe there are too many people here. unfortunately my voicing of this opinion is confined to a niche web forum for tech nerds.

i have a different opinion than you about whether CA growing is a good thing. however, i think wieners bill allows for growth without increasing traffic--i'll take it.

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