Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage? • Hacker News Board

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#21

Post by curun1r » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:52 AM UTC

zapita wrote: post #12

babaganoosh89 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher property taxes makes housing allocation more efficient as people not using the house, retired people in high cost areas, etc would be incentivized to either sell or rent their house out.

Note that repealing prop13 would probably not raise property taxes overall. It would spread them more fairly across all owners, instead of the current arrangement of newcomers subsidizing established owners.

Not necessarily. Prop 13 also gutted California's funding for schools. They lost 1/3 of their funding overnight when Prop 13 passed. One would hope that repealing Prop 13 would also undo at least some of that underfunding, considering California is 41st among states in CoL-adjusted per-pupil spending.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#22

Post by nontechdude1 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 7:54 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #19

fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here.

Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts a value on homeownership--investment in an area, and investment in the state.

As a renter, you have far less invested in CA than a property owner. A property owner who has been in place since the 70s has paid decades of taxes (all: income, property, etc), utility bills, etc, that have made the state the way it is--for all its problems, CA has some of the best public higher education in the world. This system has helped silicon valley out tremendously as a viable competitor to the ivy league system for an extremely talented workforce.

You have probably been here for some time, but not decades. Why should you get to tell these people they don't deserve what they've earned? If the tech economy crashed tomorrow, would you still be here? I doubt it.

I got in-state UC tuition but my parents paid decades of income taxes. I own one of those pieces of real estate you probably look askance at.

I understand that housing is sorta a pain for you, but for many people these pieces of real estate represent a lot of value: sentimental, and a sizable chunk of their net worth. If you're going to advocate for redistribution, there are MUCH better targets for your ire in this day and age. Otherwise, pay up, and then in 20 years run your mouth on some out-of-state carpetbagger or teenager who thinks they're entitled to something you put 30 years of mortgage payments towards.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#23

Post by bradlys » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:19 AM UTC

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

"Sorta a pain"? Are you shitting me? I have to make 400k/yr to buy a house here. The area is beyond approachable. Just because your parents paid their utility bill for 30 years doesn't mean they should be entitled to paying 15% of the tax rate of a new home owner. That's obscene and only increases the issue here. Prop 13 gives great incentive for you to fight any kind of increase in density or affordability.

If real estate is where all your net worth is: SELL AND DIVERSIFY

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#24

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:30 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #23

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

"Sorta a pain"? Are you shitting me? I have to make 400k/yr to buy a house here. The area is beyond approachable. Just because your parents paid their utility bill for 30 years doesn't mean they should be entitled to paying 15% of the tax rate of a new home owner. That's obscene and only increases the issue here. Prop 13 gives great incentive for you to fight any kind of increase in density or affordability. If real…

[deleted]

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#25

Post by entee » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:32 AM UTC

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

There are a number of ways that property taxes could be handled so as to not force people out of their homes as property values fluctuate. Just one example, there could be a maximum on percentage of income that can be charged as property tax. Pegging those taxes to prices that are literally decades old seems like the least efficient and most distortionary method. Nevermind that handing that benefit down generation after generation is the surest way to create a form of aristocracy.

Oh and let's not forget the many, many problems it has caused for the education system you so respect. Prop 13 is often named as one of the reasons why CA's public education system is under such financial duress at every level.

Why can't we just admit that we need far, far more housing stock, far, far better public transportation systems, far, far better infrastructure and that CA's unique property tax system has essentially stymied all of those efforts. I find if hard to believe CA wouldn't be better off without Prop 13.

On another note, this post strikes me as incredibly hostile toward anyone moving to California. "Stay away, this place is ours, and if you come and can't buy, then don't complain, because this place was ours first." "Oh, and you're a tech person, so bugger off, we don't need your kind anyway!"

Is the person who just bought property at market rate today more entitled to complain according to your metric? They will have paid more in taxes than the person who bought in the 70's cumulatively paid over all those decades within just a couple of years. Would they then be more Californian somehow? Entitled to more of the state's resources? How about those people who have rented here for 30 years? If you don't/can't own property are you less Californian?

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#26

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:38 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #23

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

"Sorta a pain"? Are you shitting me? I have to make 400k/yr to buy a house here. The area is beyond approachable. Just because your parents paid their utility bill for 30 years doesn't mean they should be entitled to paying 15% of the tax rate of a new home owner. That's obscene and only increases the issue here. Prop 13 gives great incentive for you to fight any kind of increase in density or affordability. If real…

[deleted]

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#27

Post by nontechdude1 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:41 AM UTC

entee wrote: post #25

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

There are a number of ways that property taxes could be handled so as to not force people out of their homes as property values fluctuate. Just one example, there could be a maximum on percentage of income that can be charged as property tax. Pegging those taxes to prices that are literally decades old seems like the least efficient and most distortionary method. Nevermind that handing that benefit down generation af…

I totally agree with more housing stock. I am a huge fan of Wieiners bill, except with the exception that some cities should not have an 8 story maximum. He is modeling it after Boston, and I've lived there, and huge complexes near transit stations is not a good thing in small cities with 1 railway station.

But do that and keep prop 13 in place, please. We don't need the state to hire a bunch of new tax assessors; it's doing just fine destroying itself financially already.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#28

Post by thebradbain » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:41 AM UTC

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

bradlys wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

nontechdude1, I think I can blame both tech companies of this current generation for their sins AND people of generations past for theirs, and that includes their exclusionary housing policies. It’s not an either-or situation.

Regardless, after the declining baby boomer population finally loses their political influence, millennials will step in and fix the problem themselves —and they will, it’s not like any of us can afford those houses (even the ones who grew up in the city and aren’t in tech, which you seem to imply are more important or valid).

That’s just democracy, after all.

[this comment was originally made in response to one of nontechdude1’s now-deleted comments]

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#29

Post by cobookman » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:45 AM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #19

fricat1ve wrote: post #2

Not one mention of Prop 13? Poor reporting. It's basically the rent control story writ large. Everyone who bought in the 20th century has such an "amazing deal" that they won't give it up unless you a) entice them with a better deal or b) gore their oxen and repeal 13.

On top of this, you can continue to give large multi-million dollar estates down indefinitely to your children without the estates being reassessed for tax purposes. That was an expansion of prop 13 which I definitely think shouldn't exist. So many people I have met here get to live here because of these ridiculous laws that basically keep the 1% the 1%. It props up real estate prices and only benefits wealthy indivi…

Just wait for the economy to crash. You'll have the CA gov looking for new income streams. It'll either be modify prop 13, modify the pension plan, or declare bankruptcy.

Re: Who caused the Bay Area’s housing shortage?

#30

Post by nontechdude1 » Tue, Apr 10, 2018, 8:46 AM UTC

thebradbain wrote: post #28

nontechdude1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your whole perspective is skewed towards you, as a newcomer, feeling entitled to everything here. Your industry (tech) is causing values to skyrocket. Which is fine, but not everyone in a single area is going to work in one industry. If a bunch of wealthy people want to live in one place (this happens in CA a lot) why should your taxes go up punitively? That's why prop 13 was put in place. It really puts…

nontechdude1, I think I can blame both tech companies of this current generation for their sins AND people of generations past for theirs, and that includes their exclusionary housing policies. It’s not an either-or situation. Regardless, after the declining baby boomer population finally loses their political influence, millennials will step in and fix the problem themselves —and they will, it’s not like any of us c…

sorry, i deleted that comment because it was..a little too much.

i would caution anyone with the resources to purchase a home to be cautious right now. there are too many political unknowns that could easily make it a poor financial choice.

or you can go all-in knowing that if you become underwater, you can just walk away (CA is a non-recourse state) as long as you don't have a HELOC on the property.