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The World After Capital

worldaftercapital.org

81–90 of 123 posts

Re: The World After Capital

#81
post #5

This is a non-serious piece. Not a single mention of mining/resource extraction or security. As long as people are fighting over rocks, we live in a capital-driven world. Key questions are who owns the minerals in the ground and the airwaves in the sky? "Humanism" has always been an ironic euphemism for imperialism, and I suppose it still is in "the world after capital."

Even if we had enough rocks, we'd still find something to fight about: ideas even.

Objectively, the number of wars deaths is going down, but tribalism overall seems to be going strong. Humanity has some growing to do, still.

Re: The World After Capital

#82
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair to argue that scarcity has been reduced significantly, and continues to be reduced. It's been replaced by hoarding. I agree that this book is a little naive in that way (from what i've skimmed) but it's also important not to dismiss the spirit of the claim just because we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources. edit: I also wanna point out that i get frustrated when peop…

Average life spans in the first world beginning to actually fall is a sign of some kind of decline.

A good example is when your parents did better at your current age..

Jobs were plentiful when your parents were your age. They were even more plentiful when your grandparents were your age.

Healthcare was reasonably priced then. Of course there was less that could be done, but people didn't go bankrupt because of a diagnosis.

Now we're seeing longevity declines and infant mortalities climb for the low and middle classes. Wealth disparity is also the greatest its ever been... But I'm sure they "worked hard" for being born into wealth.

Re: The World After Capital

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the argument being made there. Indeed, the argument is that "scarcity thinking" prevents people from addressing those problems, because people are afraid of losing what they have individually, and so are incapable of collaborating on collective issues.

What's the solution to declining fisheries that involves such "post-scarcity" thinking?

The point isn't that avoiding scarcity thinking magically provides a solution. It's that it's very difficult to implement a solution when you have e.g. a lot of fishers who stand to lose out from it.

The idea is that we should work towards a society where the people who currently fish are happy to stop fishing if necessary, because they don't fear for their survival or comfort if they do.

I'd agree it's not really a good short term solution to acute problems though.

Re: The World After Capital

#84
If you add a billion users to Youtube or to Facebook or to any other major platform, the marginal costs won't be 0 or close to 0. They'll be substantial. Existing servers won't account for the new demand. Electricity needs to be generated, new hardware needs to be procured, more employees need to be hired, etc. So I'm having trouble understanding how we're entering an age where the digital entities have marginal costs approaching 0. For a single additional customer, that's true - their costs are effectively zero. But if you start adding millions of users, the costs are not approaching zero.

Re: The World After Capital

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone consumes. It's the basis of the economy. The producers produce that which is consumed. The best thing for consumers is for producers to produce more goods at lower cost. If one of those goods is a bicycle, then the highest use might be for a nominal consumer to use it to kickstart a delivery service and join the ranks of net producers. The revenue generated by his service, or credit extended on the expectati…

>Everyone consumes. It's the basis of the economy. Yes that's my point. You can't just say production is a better use of resources than consumption, because people need to consume. The real question is what's the best trade-off between expanding productive capacity, and producing consumer goods? Given that we seem to have vast productive capacity, and yet many people in the world seem to still live in poverty, perhap…

> You can't just say production is a better use of resources than consumption

We're not talking about resources though -- capital is "the means of production". It's not the final good which is consumed. Capital, in the case of an Iowa corn farm, is neither the corn itself nor a choice about how to distribute the corn. Capital would be the land underlying the farm, the "seed corn", the farming implements, and the funding (liquid capital, e.g. money, credit, debt) for the operation. The farm employees and owners are ostensibly human capital but are usually considered separate from "capital" in general.

One way to allocate this capital is Zimbabwe or South Africa style, which says give it to the needy. Or Venezuela style which says give it to the public (i.e. government). Again, the question of capital allocation is distinct from the question of consumption good allocation, though the answers tend to be highly correlated.

> The real question is what's the best trade-off between expanding productive capacity, and producing consumer goods?

In general, expanding productive capacity results in producing more consumer goods. Any "lag" concerns are trivial, which would be the only tradeoff here. The best thing for people lacking in consumer goods is to produce more goods by expanding productive capacity. What's the real alternative? How would you propose to allocate capital towards people in poverty?

When we get to free nanoreplicators, that will be great in terms of raising living standards for everyone, and this entirely consistent with capital theory, particularly in terms of maximizing consumer welfare. It will be hard to "make a living" as a producer in such an economy, but no one needs to "make a living" beyond pushing the button on their nanoreplicator.

Re: The World After Capital

#86
post #10

Wikipedia defines capital as "a factor of production that is not wanted for itself but for its ability to help in producing other goods". That's the definition I learned in high school while studying Marx. There is not an "after capital" world. To manufacture anything you need capital first. Even for software services you need software, that's also capital. So to reach a world of post-scarcity you need a lot of capit…

The argument being made here is not that we don't need the things we call capital, it's that we have enough capital now that allocating it is not the primary problem we need our economy to solve, and that the current system we use to do so (i.e. Capitalism) is limiting our ability to prioritise anything other than the creation of more capital. Therefore I would read the title not as "after capital ceases to exist" bu…

If capitalism is limiting our ability to prioritize anything other than the creation of more capital, how do you explain ventures like SpaceX, which are highly capitalistic but demonstrably moving humanity forward?

Re: The World After Capital

#87
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument being made here is not that we don't need the things we call capital, it's that we have enough capital now that allocating it is not the primary problem we need our economy to solve, and that the current system we use to do so (i.e. Capitalism) is limiting our ability to prioritise anything other than the creation of more capital. Therefore I would read the title not as "after capital ceases to exist" bu…

Fair point. But, the concerns with attention are the other part of this thesis. How is attention related to capital? . I think this is a fair question. Something worth considering in relating this to Marx is that while Karl Marx did not live at a time that would have favored a deep awareness of media , his work is very concerned with culture. His more economic terminology was "human relations" and how capital mediate…

If you're interested in the role of attention under capitalism, I would recommend Peter Coffin's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/petercoffin

Most of his stuff is focused on how attention is used to manipulate people's worldview in the "Marketplace of Ideas", but his latest video is about considering attention as labour. (Although, I thought it was a little unclear tbh)

Re: The World After Capital

#88
post #53
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

I think it's fair to argue that scarcity has been reduced significantly, and continues to be reduced. It's been replaced by hoarding. I agree that this book is a little naive in that way (from what i've skimmed) but it's also important not to dismiss the spirit of the claim just because we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources. edit: I also wanna point out that i get frustrated when peop…

> we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources

I think this seriously understates the case. Hoarding certainly matters in terms of shared wealth, but the resource use of the mega-rich is much closer to that of the middle class than their financial position. The common "fourth Earths to live like Americans!" statistics seem to abuse means, but even median first world consumption is basically debt-financed in terms of resource use.

Certainly we can expect more efficiency in the future, our current consumption isn't irreducible, but that's far from a guarantee we'll make it through the gate. The trend on issues like water consumption has been for efficiency gains to slowly lose out against the fundamentally unsustainable approaches taken everywhere from Oklahoma to Capetown.

Re: The World After Capital

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone consumes. It's the basis of the economy. The producers produce that which is consumed. The best thing for consumers is for producers to produce more goods at lower cost. If one of those goods is a bicycle, then the highest use might be for a nominal consumer to use it to kickstart a delivery service and join the ranks of net producers. The revenue generated by his service, or credit extended on the expectati…

>Everyone consumes. It's the basis of the economy. Yes that's my point. You can't just say production is a better use of resources than consumption, because people need to consume. The real question is what's the best trade-off between expanding productive capacity, and producing consumer goods? Given that we seem to have vast productive capacity, and yet many people in the world seem to still live in poverty, perhap…

> Yes that's my point. You can't just say production is a better use of resources than consumption, because people need to consume.

Exactly. We'll put a cost on how much it is to live per day, and if you fail to exceed that, capitalism will slowly kill you.

And for a great many people, it does.

It kills by pollution in communities that don't have enough to fight the corporations.

It kills by depriving basic health care.

It kills by malnutrition.

It kills by subsidization of refined carbohydrates and sugars.

It slowly kills by locking people in jobs in which the upkeep for their bodies is higher than what they make.

It further injures the future generations by depriving education to those in impoverished areas.

"But hey, we made a killing on the markets. And stock prices went up for the next quarter. And those low wagers we employ, well, ehh, turnover's a thing. It's just another externalization we don't have to care about!"

Re: The World After Capital

#90
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fair to argue that scarcity has been reduced significantly, and continues to be reduced. It's been replaced by hoarding. I agree that this book is a little naive in that way (from what i've skimmed) but it's also important not to dismiss the spirit of the claim just because we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources. edit: I also wanna point out that i get frustrated when peop…

Average life spans in the first world beginning to actually fall is a sign of some kind of decline.

Maybe it is an indication of some kind of decline. Saying that decline is the decline of capitalism seems like a stretch, though.
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