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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

451–460 of 541 posts

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#451
post #8

Signatures haven't been required for credit cards in many other countries for quite some time now. I have often wondered why the US has historically lagged behind for everyday banking. (e.g. email money transfers, chip enabled cards, pin number verification, tap to pay)

Can anyone explain why credit cards are preferred in the US? In the Netherlands they're basically an obscurity, and I couldn't even pay for my groceries with one. We all have debit cards that charge directly from your bank here. Just what does the CC system offer over debit?

For consumers, credit cards offer benefits, such as cash back, "point rewards" systems, and so on. The price is the same, credit or debit, so why not credit?

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#452
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible to clone chip and pin cards. Not easy, but possible: https://www.kaspersky.com/blog/chip-n-pin-cloning/21502/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/13/chip_and_pin_securi...

I didn't know about the first attack you mentioned, but it still seems to boil down to cloning non-EMV card onto card that behaves like EMV. For this to work I think that the terminal must be horribly misconfigured and then it almost certainly defrauds the merchant and not the original cardholder as I don't see how merchant's bank would ever authorize such transaction. The second on you mention is based on exploiting…

Light Blue Touchpaper talked about this all at some length.

On the one hand it's true that all these flaws can be worked around. But on the other hand, how did card companies not bring in cryptographers to help them get this stuff right in the first place? Did they not think it was important?

The TLS journey is illustrative. Originally SSL is hand-rolled crypto. And so SSL 1.0 is so bad it was never really used, their second attempt, SSL 2.0 is still pretty flawed, it's no longer "Herp, I eat paste" bad but even SSL 3.0 still suffers from some pretty bad decisions where clearly engineers who've heard of encryption but aren't experts are making too many cryptographically important decisions.

TLS 1.0 goes to the IETF. So now there's a wider pool looking at this stuff, but firstly it's still trying to be compatible with SSL and secondly these are still just more engineers, not cryptographers. Even in TLS 1.2 actual crypto people only get involved at the end, and they're basically asked (like a poor submission to r/crypto) "Is this OK?" rather than "What would _you_ do here?". It's hard to say "This is not OK" even if your gut instinct is screaming, unless you can prove it. So that's weaker than we'd like.

Finally in TLS 1.3 crypto people are involved from the outset, serious mathematical crypto people who say things like "In this paper we show that under the stated threat model an attacker cannot discover key C in this protocol without having key A if the PRF meets the criteria laid down in reference Z" and they helped produce what we expect to be the most secure version of TLS.

Now, TLS 1.3 took _years_ longer than SSL 2.0, but banks don't do anything quickly anyway. So why didn't EMV take its time and produce something better by hiring in cryptographers to design this stuff? No cryptographer would go "Oh, yeah, just ask for four numbers and if they're all different that's good enough".

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#453
post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FirstTech's credit card is PIN priority. I've only used it in Canada so far, but it works as expected there.

Do you know if you have to join the credit union to get a card, or do they issue them to anybody? Edit: I just contact them and you do indeed have to become a member first.

First Tech's membership bar is quite low, I was surprised how easy it was to get my SO an account. The Zelle integration on the mobile app is pretty slick too!

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just looking for a chip-and-pin card that I (as an American) could get for traveling to the UK and apparently there really isn't much out there. I think all of the US cards that support chip and pin prioritize signature over pin. I also found this Visa page explaining that PIN isn't used in the US because it's too expensive: https://usa.visa.com/visa-everywhere/security/the-cost-of-pi...

Might check some of the credit unions you can join. I know at least FirstTech uses chip and pin for their credit cards.

First Tech security is pretty top notch. For online trnsacations over a certain amount they would ask for password verification.

I just wished online transactions owned it up for optional two factor online transactions, pin card transactions and SMS verifications for all transactions above $500.

That would drop fraud significantly.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#455
post #367

I took my new chip enabled CC to Germany 3 yrs ago and paid for a train ticket with it. The clerk said "ugh an American card" and had me sign some random piece of paper. I felt like an antique.

"The clerk said "ugh an American card" and had me sign some random piece of paper. I felt like an antique." Don't feel so bad - remember that we invented the credit card . Also the phone . And the Internet .

The Egyptians invented metallurgy and several other things but I'm not sure they're leading anymore :)

Your argument looks a lot like a fallacy, to me.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone explain why credit cards are preferred in the US? In the Netherlands they're basically an obscurity, and I couldn't even pay for my groceries with one. We all have debit cards that charge directly from your bank here. Just what does the CC system offer over debit?

For consumers, credit cards offer benefits, such as cash back, "point rewards" systems, and so on. The price is the same, credit or debit, so why not credit?

IMO, Most American got used to the life use the money in future. CC is the simplest way to loan money from the bank now, and pay it back in future. Meanwhile, the bank also like this, as lots of people wouldn't able to pay the debt on time with full balance, so they can make money from the interest.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#458
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From experience, a signature in the checkout line usually takes about 5-10 seconds. Removing it may seem like a small negligible change for users, but for retailers, it most likely adds up. Your right, can we also remove that stupid bag tax in SF. It easily takes 20 - 30 seconds per transaction. "Do you want a bag?" "Ugh, yeah I do" "Alright that's 50 cents" "wait, could I get three bags, not two - I don't want my…

I think the policy is working as designed. The grating, low-grade, annoying, time-wasting inconvenience is supposed to continue to irritate the purchaser until they decide to bring their own bags.

Or even not a bag at all. I walk into a store, I want a bottle of Coke, and a pack of coconut biscuits. I see a Mars bar, yeah, OK, Mars bar too. I blip them through, shove them in my pockets, walk out. No problem. No bag needed.

In the old days, this is instantly suspicious but now it makes sense to people even if they aren't thinking about the environmental consequences. A bag is say 15 pence, why pay 15 pence extra for three items?

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#459

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

Also, I believe contactless is something the US is behind on too

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that drains your account. This is barely dangerous imo. Inconvenient perhaps but not dangerous. The reason being your bank will refund the money. The dangerous ones are those that take tiny amounts monthly that you just won't notice.

> The dangerous ones are those that take tiny amounts monthly that you just won't notice. Wait, what? How are you not going to notice? Every transaction is a line on your statement which, I think, all banks issue monthly. Besides, if you have a computer, you can download all transactions (to Quicken or similar software) every day or two and verify all your new transactions. If you have a phone, Many banks and cards c…

Most statements (at least in the US) have very cryptic descriptions though. For example there might be an entry for EPC #008 for $2.95, and by deduction I can figure out that is the identifier for the coffee kiosk in the lobby of my building, but there is no way I would be be able to identify all transactions. Normally it doesn't really matter except for large transactions which I would remember. I can see a small fraudulent charge going unnoticed.
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