Live data from Hacker News

The World After Capital

worldaftercapital.org

61–70 of 123 posts

Re: The World After Capital

#61

We're no where close to eliminating scarcity or capital. We're so far from that there is almost no point in giving it serious merit. Probably centuries away. Humans being will be limited by scarcity until we're able to convert matter from one substance to another with ease, and able to freely genetically engineer ourselves to survive on other worlds.

I think that's the most important (and one of the least examined) aspect of "post-capitalism". It's easy for me and, I assume, anybody else to _envision_ a world where there's no more useful work for humans to do and therefore no further need for people to "earn a living". However, it seems pretty obvious that we're not there yet. We might be ten years away, we might be a thousand years away - but destroying civiliza…

I think most people talking about the end of capitalism are imagining the system caving in on itself rather than its gentle evolution into a Utopian post-capitalist state.

Re: The World After Capital

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different views of sustainability. My view is that the only path is continued progress. Here is what I write early on in the book https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

I think you will find very few people who disagree with the abstract idea of "progress," but that isn't really a program.

Part 3 of the book is a program for that reason https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

Re: The World After Capital

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you will find very few people who disagree with the abstract idea of "progress," but that isn't really a program.

Part 3 of the book is a program for that reason https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

"Free ourselves from scarcity thinking." Brilliant. Do not worry about the decrease in arable land, shortages of drinking water, decline in biomass in fisheries, scarce minerals, or any of that stuff. It's all in your head! Mind over matter, man.

Re: The World After Capital

#64
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You demonstrated that average income exceeds the poverty threshold; that does not in and of itself demonstrate that there was adequate capital. GDP is not a measure of capital; GDP is the value of goods and services produced. That said, the burden is on the author of "The World After Capital" to demonstrate what is meant by "sufficient capital".

What exactly do you think it means to have "enough" capital, and how would you suggest measuring it? Surely looking at the value of goods and services we are able to produce with existing capital is precisely that which we should be measuring to determine whether it's enough?

My suggestion in the book is to go back to a distinction between "needs" and "wants." A distinction that capitalism has unfortunately erased. For a great treatment of that I recommend "How Much is Enough" by Edward and Robert Skidelsky. Here is my take on Needs (caveat: this section of the book is heavily under development, so YMMV) https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

Re: The World After Capital

#65
post #21

Lots of shaky assumptions and economic misconceptions in this book. Every decade there is always a utopian or a group of idealists who claim that we have the means to meet everyones needs and that capitalism and its economic laws are no longer capable of providing the goods and services that we demand. But these ideas are always incoherent and boil down to arbitrary assumptions about human nature. Let us, for the sak…

I you are right, but I also think that there is an argument that our modern incarnation of capitalism has more in common with a planned economy than Adam Smith's capitalism.

In many key areas of the economy there are no free agents making economic decisions. This is the age of rent-seeking. The competitive markets for fuel, finance, retail and many other areas are increasingly being pushed to the fringe of the market.

If the answer to how to manage the economy is capitalism, than we need to embrace capitalism.

Re: The World After Capital

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered the possibility that you yourself don't understand what capital is, and are confusing it with money? Or no, disregard that, obviously Marx is the one with the major misapprehension here.

Oh I get it! By redefining common words, you create an 'in group' of pseudo-intellectuals who know the 'real truth' about whatever. Thanks, I'll bow out of this.

> capital (countable and uncountable, plural capitals)

> 1. (uncountable, economics) Already-produced durable goods available for use as a factor of production, such as steam shovels (equipment) and office buildings (structures).

Join the in-group: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/capital#Noun

Re: The World After Capital

#67
post #52

You see whether scarcity is “attention” if you’re 59, “retired” due to “technological obsolescence,” and develop a medical problem in the U.S.

Is that a problem of scarcity though? In most other developed countries, there is some form of universal healthcare, and this hasn't caused these countries to come grinding to a halt. Which suggests that the problem in the US is not "scarcity" but how the existing resources are allocated.

Unless we institute a worldwide, universal commune where all resources are equally available to everyone, people are going to experience localized scarcity. I think it's a fair example.

Re: The World After Capital

#68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking what should replace Capitalism is a very reasonable question. The problem is that lots of people don't actually explore this question in a spirit of intellectual honesty. >What do the central planners like the author of the book have in mind to "replace" capitalism? Right off the bat, you insist that any alternative to capitalism is necessarily the whim of a "central planner", and go on to suggest that: >Socia…

>Asking what should replace Capitalism is a very reasonable question. The problem is that lots of people don't actually explore this question in a spirit of intellectual honesty. It is not a reasonable question because inquiries into this matter start from the assumption that capitalism is a conscious creation by man (and thus replaceable) and not something that, through the laws of human action, evolves spontaneousl…

>not something that, through the laws of human action, evolves spontaneously between free individuals.

Because it isn't. There is nothing "spontaneous" about private property. There have been a wide variety of conceptions of property throughout history, many involving notions of collective ownership. The system as it currently exists is enforced by state violence and was created historically by privatising collectively owned property.

e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

>an alternative to capitalism ... necessitates the use of coercion to enforce

So does capitalism. The only way you can "own" capital is by using violence to prevent other people trying to use it.

>Let us assume that a collective has made a decision to produce pineapples and not bananas, what happens to the guy who likes bananas and funds the production of bananas and refuses to participate in the production of pineapples?

There are a lot of assumptions here. Why is this a mutually exclusive choice? Can we not grow both pineapples and bananas? Does the man believe the amount of bananas produced will not be enough to satisfy him? How many bananas does he expect to be able to eat?

In any case, the answer depends on the system. In some systems, the guy would be punished (as he would if he were employed by a pineapple farmer under capitalism) in others, the decision of what to grow would be his, and the collective just coordinates to inform him how many bananas are already being grown nearby, so he can make an informed decision about whether bananas are the right thing to grow.

>No, the subjective theory of value does not say that, in fact it says the opposite: it is impossible to determine the value of goods since they come from the subjective choices of free individuals. Prices come pretty damn close though.

The last part is what I'm criticising. An exchange system weights the demand input to market price determination based on the wealth of the individual. This means the market optimises for the subjective values of the rich over those of the poor.

And since the rich already have plenty, what they tend to demand is more capital. This leads to a system which is very effective at creating capital, but very bad at distributing its bounties. This is perhaps good when we have a scarcity of capital, but the argument made by the author here is that we have enough now, so we should redirect the economy to distribute wealth more effectively.

Re: The World After Capital

#69
post #21

Lots of shaky assumptions and economic misconceptions in this book. Every decade there is always a utopian or a group of idealists who claim that we have the means to meet everyones needs and that capitalism and its economic laws are no longer capable of providing the goods and services that we demand. But these ideas are always incoherent and boil down to arbitrary assumptions about human nature. Let us, for the sak…

> free market is the _only_ system that is capable of rationally allocating resources in a society

That's a mighty strong claim there. Rationally...

Except for food. Except for gas. Except for land. Except for scarcity. Except for...

And the biggest part here that speaks against what you say, is that information asymmetry is the biggest reason why this doesn't work the way you portray it. And right now, you have giants who provide "Free" services, that only want your social graph, your realtime positioning data, content of your chats, who you are, and your metadata about everything. And on the upside, you get free email and chat!

> The proposed solutions always boil down to some form of common ownership of the means of production.

Counterpoint: GPL.

And yes, that does work.

> Without prices there is no economic calculation, and the best pricing system is one that is based on private property.

Again, completely wrong. Current prices distill every possible dimension down to one, that being price. Organic? price. Company was union? Price. Company treated people with respect and dignity? Price. Company treated the rivers like their own personal trash transfer? Price. Company uses prison slave labor? Price.

It doesn't matter what metrics are being compared against. We have the almighty dollar. It doesn't matter if the environment is being trashed to save a nickel - hey, I saved a buck.

> Socialism _always_ fails because a central authority cannot, objectively, plan an economy better

False premise. Central authority was only an idea regarding socialism/communism. It is not the ground truth.

Re: The World After Capital

#70
post #10

Wikipedia defines capital as "a factor of production that is not wanted for itself but for its ability to help in producing other goods". That's the definition I learned in high school while studying Marx. There is not an "after capital" world. To manufacture anything you need capital first. Even for software services you need software, that's also capital. So to reach a world of post-scarcity you need a lot of capit…

Funny thing the scenario you put forward in the last part is exactly how Marx envisioned the transition from capitalism to socialism (iirc, communism was seen as a possible stepping stone). Thus he expected it to happen in heavily industrialized nations like Germany or UK back when he was writing. Supposedly Lenin was able to meet Marx once before the latter died, and asked Marx about his opinion on bootstrapping Rus…

You have that backwards. In Marx's works, socialism was the stepping stone to communism.
Post reply on HN