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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#421

Post by arghwhat »

skeletal88 wrote: post #380
arghwhat wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lack of chip and pin pales into insignificance compared to their addiction to paper checks, for example. Paper checks are indeed a silly cost, but NFC provides banks no gain over chip. Chip provides gain over magnet stripe by basically rendering skimmers ineffective, but only basically in that credit card fraud is still a big business. Instead of skimmers, you use trojans or data leaks. Physical credit cards al…

The benefit of NFC for banks would be an image and PR boost, the bank could say that they are the hip and trendy bank, come to us. Then other banks would have to follow eventually. Why else would banks in europe adopt NFC or contactless payments?

I am only speaking for a single EU country here. In DK, features such as NFC are released for all banks simultaneously (that is, fully implemented and functioning) through the national payment provider, who is also the issuer for our national credit card type (which is a dual-type card by also being a VISA for international use, and is tied directly to a bank account). I don't think they have a choice, and they certainly gain no PR or image from it.

Now, the national payment provider (a private company) does it because they earn money on terminals, and want to fight to stay relevant in a world of emerging mobile payment solutions such as MobilePay (a Danish mobile payment solution of which over half the population are users).

The only exception to this rule appears to be Apple Pay, which is implemented by some individual banks. I am not sure if this is due to platform differences, or whether it is just the national payment provider fighting back. I'd suspect the latter, as Apply Pay just see our dual-type credit cards as VISA, sending them transaction fees that the national payment provider lose out on.

Other than that, banks here are only differentiated based on their financial solutions, and maybe in some rare cases by their mobile/internet banking solution (all have feature complete variants, but some are nicer than others).

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#422

Post by kstrauser »

jamiethompson wrote: post #279
marssaxman wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stopped signing credit cards several years ago, as an experiment; how long will it take someone to notice? I'm still waiting.

I never do either. It happened to me last year. Possibly only because the guy was a trainee and was literally going by the book though.

I worked the night shift at a hotel in college. I turned down a "SEE ID"-signed card once, where the guy started the transaction with "hey loser, got a room?" to amuse his girlfriend. Turns out that's an excellent way to get me to be nitpicky about the rules.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#423

Post by halestock »

Jolter wrote: post #287

I found it odd that Mastercard would say "[...] it has been wanting to make the change for years, but held off until cards embedded with computer chips became common." Whose responsibility is it to make those cards more common, if not Mastercard's? In Sweden, cards have only been issued with chips since the early 2000s, and consequently merchants only very rarely use signature purchases. Why they didn't push this soo…

I'd wager it's less an issue of the cards being commonplace, but instead the card readers and processing companies. I still regularly encounter stores which either don't have a card reader that can accept a chip, or there's a sign indicating that it's not enabled yet.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#424

Post by jdmichal »

Jolter wrote: post #287

I found it odd that Mastercard would say "[...] it has been wanting to make the change for years, but held off until cards embedded with computer chips became common." Whose responsibility is it to make those cards more common, if not Mastercard's? In Sweden, cards have only been issued with chips since the early 2000s, and consequently merchants only very rarely use signature purchases. Why they didn't push this soo…

> Whose responsibility is it to make those cards more common, if not Mastercard's?

The issuers. Of course, Mastercard has some influence over them... But they certainly can't unilaterally dictate conditions to them beyond whatever contract they signed.

There's also the fact that, even if issuers handed them out, the machines and merchant processors also have to support them. Which was something that still hasn't completely happened in the US, even with the networks pushing as hard as they could. (Moving fraud liability to the merchants is about the biggest move they could make.)

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#425

Post by seanalltogether »

criddell wrote: post #368
jimnotgym wrote: post #240

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

I was just looking for a chip-and-pin card that I (as an American) could get for traveling to the UK and apparently there really isn't much out there. I think all of the US cards that support chip and pin prioritize signature over pin. I also found this Visa page explaining that PIN isn't used in the US because it's too expensive: https://usa.visa.com/visa-everywhere/security/the-cost-of-pi...

Before I moved full time to the UK i was in the same position. The only bank I found that provided true chip and pin was Andrews FCU. https://www.andrewsfcu.org/personal/loans-and-credit/credit-...

I never got one though, I ended up getting married soon after and got a UK bank account.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#426

Post by gambiting »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #410
gambiting wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So its not up to you to enter a restaurant prepared to pay for the meal? I have paid for the meal. At the end of my visit I was given a receipt and paid the indicated price - what else do you want? If the server is disappointed they didn't get a tip, then I think I know who is entitled in this relationship, and I have a very strong suspicion it's not me. >> in fact nobody else but you can do anything about it I pay…

There it is - the deliberate explaining away of personal responsibility to make oneself feel better. The last comment gives away how we all know the first is false. The restaurant owner in America does not pay a good wage, because tipping is a thing and the market adjusted. Not tipping for service is victimizing the least powerful person in the relationship. And the need to make it 'ok' is self-serving doubletalk. A…

>>The restaurant owner in America does not pay a good wage, because tipping is a thing and the market adjusted.

The market would adjust itself overnight if everyone stopped tipping, and I'm sure even you can see that.

On my end, what can I do to stop this country becoming more like America in terms of tipping? Well, not tip of course, in which case it won't become expected and necessary to support shitty business practices. Amazon has "suggested" tipping for drivers now. Uber suggests tips. Deliveroo expects tips. It is imperative that if you live in UK you select ZERO on all of these. If you enter any value above zero you are sending a clear signal to Amazon etc that they can pay their drivers shitty wages because the customer is willing to subsidise them. Is an Uber driver going to feel sad they got zero tips that day? You bet they will - and I still couldn't care any less, their personal job satisfaction should not be subsidised by me.

But I've gotten away from my original point - yes, I recognize that in US the market is adjusted for tipping. But my original comment wasn't about US - it was about UK, where - to my relief - tipping isn't a requirement. Fortunately I can still pay only as much as the bill says and not feel bad about it in the slightest, because I know the person serving my table does not rely on my tips to survive. And like I said above - I do tip when the service is good at restaurants. I just don't want it to become a norm like in the US of A.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#427

Post by hliyan »

bernardlunn wrote: post #344

America is so stuck in legacy tech. Nobody checks signatures. Strong Factor Authentication requires min 2 of 3. India is leapfrogging to biometrics using Aadhar. Europe is current with chip and pin. America is in quill pen stage

I'm a bit surprised you're citing Aadhar in a security related discussion, especially after recent revelations about privacy breaches.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#428

Post by ryandrake »

Nursie wrote: post #408
ghaff wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. If I'm in the grocery store, I know that I can take my credit card out of my wallet, insert it into the machine (or swipe it), maybe scrawl a wiggly line, and remove the card all in about 10 seconds. Alternatively, I can fiddle with my phone, get it to recognize me, hope it works, etc. which--even if it doesn't always take longer--is certainly less deterministic while the person behind me is probably going t…

> Alternatively, I can fiddle with my phone, get it to recognize me, hope it works, etc. which--even if it doesn't always take longer--is certainly less deterministic while the person behind me is probably going through their own version of the internal sigh I have when the person in front of me is fiddling with some non-routine payment method. I don't recognise this at all. Pull phone out of pocket, touch the finger…

Pull phone out of pocket, touch the reader, nothing happens.

Theory 1: I’m not touching the reader in the right place. Maybe the sensor is on this side or that. Try hovering the phone all over the POS box.

Theory 2: Maybe my phone is not working. Try waving it around again while cashier has this “get your shit together” look on his face. Pull out CC.

Theory 3: The reader supports NFC but not ApplePay, so now I’ve wasted my time. Pull out CC.

Theory 4: Its not even a NFC reader (because there seems to be no standard way of telling by just looking at them). So, now I’ve wasted my time. Pull out CC.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#429

Post by pmorici »

u801e wrote: post #153
pmorici wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kind of fraud prevented by a PIN enabled chip card is supposedly pretty rare. What would be more useful is a standard for browser attached chip card readers to bring the anti-fraud protections of a chip card to everyday Internet transactions.

> The kind of fraud prevented by a PIN enabled chip card is supposedly pretty rare. Are lost and stolen cards not a common problem? I suppose if the card holder reports it to the credit card company fast enough, it would prevent fraudulent charges from going through, but it would be nice if the person who found/stole the card(s) wasn't able to just use it without having to enter a PIN to do so.

My understanding is that lost and stolen cards are a very small portion of fraud compared to industrial scale skimming, cloning, hacking operations. Lost stolen cards only account for 14% of fraud cases. [0]

[0] https://www.nasdaq.com/article/credit-card-fraud-and-id-thef...

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#430

Post by chimeracoder »

criddell wrote: post #315
jimnotgym wrote: post #240

In the UK cards moved to 'chip and pin' in 2006! Fraud in a 'customer present' scenario is very low at our stores. The last fraud in fact was a foreign card that didn't support chip and pin. I can't believe Visa and MasterCard have not made it mandatory world wide... ...except card fraud lossed are recharged to the merchant so perhaps they don't care? Out of interest there is a special exception for disabled people w…

I'm visiting London this summer (I'm from Texas). Normally, I pay for everything with American Express. Would you recommend I get a different card for London? I wonder if there's a US card that support chip and pin?

> Normally, I pay for everything with American Express. Would you recommend I get a different card for London? I wonder if there's a US card that support chip and pin?

Amex isn't as widely accepted outside the US. If you have a Visa or Mastercard, bring that.

Almost all credit cards issued in the US now support EMV chips. They almost never support PINs, but that doesn't actually matter because all merchants are required to be able to accept all three.

I've traveled all over the world, and never once has this been an issue. Nobody's even batted an eyelid when I give them a US-issued card. Except, of course, for places which only accept cash, but that's a separate question.

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