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The World After Capital

worldaftercapital.org

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Re: The World After Capital

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rationally can be understood to mean something like: * Put goods to their highest use * Allocate capital to those who can produce more rather than consume it In general, nothing is given to anyone. Increasing capital (i.e. by a single individual or within a single firm) is quite difficult and getting moreso every day. If 1% of the population is a super-producer, 9% are regular producers, and 90% are largely consumers…

>* Put goods to their highest use That's just dodging the question. What is the "highest use"? >* Allocate capital to those who can produce more rather than consume it And thus the optimally rational world as conceived based on this premise is one where no one ever consumes anything.

Everyone consumes. It's the basis of the economy. The producers produce that which is consumed. The best thing for consumers is for producers to produce more goods at lower cost.

If one of those goods is a bicycle, then the highest use might be for a nominal consumer to use it to kickstart a delivery service and join the ranks of net producers. The revenue generated by his service, or credit extended on the expectation of future revenue, can allow him to outbid a pure consumer from purchasing the bicycle as a leisure device, leisure being a lower use than that of delivery.

Re: The World After Capital

#52
You see whether scarcity is “attention” if you’re 59, “retired” due to “technological obsolescence,” and develop a medical problem in the U.S.

Re: The World After Capital

#53
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

I think it's fair to argue that scarcity has been reduced significantly, and continues to be reduced. It's been replaced by hoarding. I agree that this book is a little naive in that way (from what i've skimmed) but it's also important not to dismiss the spirit of the claim just because we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources.

edit: I also wanna point out that i get frustrated when people say "late stage capitalism" or "post-capitalism" because it's really presumptuous. For one thing, you have no evidence that you're anywhere near the "end" of capitalism, or even that it's in decline!

Re: The World After Capital

#54
post #21

Lots of shaky assumptions and economic misconceptions in this book. Every decade there is always a utopian or a group of idealists who claim that we have the means to meet everyones needs and that capitalism and its economic laws are no longer capable of providing the goods and services that we demand. But these ideas are always incoherent and boil down to arbitrary assumptions about human nature. Let us, for the sak…

Asking what should replace Capitalism is a very reasonable question. The problem is that lots of people don't actually explore this question in a spirit of intellectual honesty. >What do the central planners like the author of the book have in mind to "replace" capitalism? Right off the bat, you insist that any alternative to capitalism is necessarily the whim of a "central planner", and go on to suggest that: >Socia…

>Asking what should replace Capitalism is a very reasonable question. The problem is that lots of people don't actually explore this question in a spirit of intellectual honesty.

It is not a reasonable question because inquiries into this matter start from the assumption that capitalism is a conscious creation by man (and thus replaceable) and not something that, through the laws of human action, evolves spontaneously between free individuals.

>Right off the bat, you insist that any alternative to capitalism is necessarily the whim of a "central planner", and go on to suggest that:

Yes, because an alternative to capitalism (the interactions between free individuals in a market) necessitates the use of coercion to enforce, coercion that will inevitably be directed by someone.

>But of course, Socialism does not prescribe a central authority (although many theories suggest one), and an exchange market is not the only way to collectively make decisions.

Let us assume that a collective has made a decision to produce pineapples and not bananas, what happens to the guy who likes bananas and funds the production of bananas and refuses to participate in the production of pineapples?

>The market doesn't tell us why things cost what they do. Proponents of a free market argue that anything the market values is inherently valuable, even if that seems unintuitive. However, I think when many many people are unhappy with the priorities of the market, we should perhaps consider this claim with more scrutiny.

No, and we will never ever know why things cost the way they do, but we can draw some reasonable conclusions based on things like supply and demand. Ultimately however prices are the result of the choices of billions of people in an enormous decentralised system (the market), and it is literally impossible to objectively know the chain of choices that led to one specific good being priced one dollar or ten dollars. Doing so would require knowing every single choice that every man, woman, and child makes every single moment as well as taking into account the choices they didn't choose, the ordinal scale of which is quite literally infinite for every individual.

>Proponents of a free market argue that anything the market values is inherently valuable, even if that seems unintuitive.

No, the subjective theory of value does not say that, in fact it says the opposite: it is impossible to determine the objective value of goods since they come from the subjective choices of free individuals. Prices come pretty damn close though. Ironically, it is Marx that said that value can be determined objectively through the lens of the labour theory of value where the amount of labor put into a good is what determines its value. That, most certainly, is unintuitive.

Re: The World After Capital

#55
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

It can also be argued that countries in which the majority of the housing and labor markets are "off the books" are still pre-capitalist.

So just because much of the world is not post-scarcity, it doesn't mean that he's wrong.

I just don't know if attention really will be the new currency or whatever. I think that part's ridiculous.

The real danger to post-capitalist possibilities is greed and the effect greed has on structures. Crypto could be the vehicle to take us past capitalism, but it looks like it's just gonna turn into capitalism 2.0. An even better way for the rich to use their wealth to put pressure on those without it.

Re: The World After Capital

#56
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

There are different views of sustainability. My view is that the only path is continued progress. Here is what I write early on in the book https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

Re: The World After Capital

#57
post #52

You see whether scarcity is “attention” if you’re 59, “retired” due to “technological obsolescence,” and develop a medical problem in the U.S.

Is that a problem of scarcity though?

In most other developed countries, there is some form of universal healthcare, and this hasn't caused these countries to come grinding to a halt. Which suggests that the problem in the US is not "scarcity" but how the existing resources are allocated.

Re: The World After Capital

#58
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

There are different views of sustainability. My view is that the only path is continued progress. Here is what I write early on in the book https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...

I think you will find very few people who disagree with the abstract idea of "progress," but that isn't really a program.

Re: The World After Capital

#59
post #53
post #42

We do not live in a post-scarcity world, just the illusion of one. Ecological systems will collapse because humans' unchecked consumption patterns disrupt the homeostasis of those systems. I feel sad that this person writes about "post-scarcity" and "post-capitalism" because it reinforces for me the fact that this person with the resources and station in life to help take responsibility for this accelerating, destabi…

I think it's fair to argue that scarcity has been reduced significantly, and continues to be reduced. It's been replaced by hoarding. I agree that this book is a little naive in that way (from what i've skimmed) but it's also important not to dismiss the spirit of the claim just because we haven't totally solved all of our dependencies on limited resources. edit: I also wanna point out that i get frustrated when peop…

Average life spans in the first world beginning to actually fall is a sign of some kind of decline.

Re: The World After Capital

#60

We're no where close to eliminating scarcity or capital. We're so far from that there is almost no point in giving it serious merit. Probably centuries away. Humans being will be limited by scarcity until we're able to convert matter from one substance to another with ease, and able to freely genetically engineer ourselves to survive on other worlds.

The opposite of scarcity is not abundance. There is a state in-between which I call "sufficient." See https://worldaftercapital.gitbooks.io/worldaftercapital/cont...
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