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Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

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Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#161

Post by techsin101 »

English isn't my native language. I'll tell you my high school story.

There were some kids who started to speak perfectly in 2 years. And then some who even 10 years later still struggle. And probably have mental problems due to it.

People who didn't have family here mostly interested with strangers, who all spoke English. They became fluent.

People who had family here spoke English only in context of school in limited sentences. They struggle even after college.

People who did worst were who had family here, and were only friends with people from their own country. Most didn't go to college.

People who were in ESL did worse than people in regular English. Mostly they had less opportunities to speak their native language and didn't learn bad grammar rules. Most grammar rules are broken at some point.

Learning to speak by reading is a crime in first place.

Doctor consoles patient. I've many consoles.

ESL student who learned from reading could die before realizing the distinction.

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#162

Post by fenomas »

Baeocystin wrote: post #158
fenomas wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> His usage is at a level I would consider intermediate at best. ... There is no shame in not being 100% fluent. Your notions about language proficiency are wildly out of whack. The speaker you're talking about is clearly articulating their ideas, coherently and without (one presumes) halting or grasping. That's fluency.

You don't have to agree with me, and that is OK. But my opinion is based off of experience. You might be interested in http://www.govtilr.org/Skills/ILRscale5.htm as an example of the scales used when defining levels of competency.

I'm sure you meant this reply to be constructive, but without describing the experience in question or saying which category from your link you think applies here, it doesn't convey anything.

For me, my experience is two years as an English teacher and my opinion based on that experience is that someone who can convey complex ideas clearly and without effort is fluent. If you define that to be intermediate, what's left for "fluent" to mean?

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#163

Post by bayindirh »

stordoff wrote: post #147
aerovistae wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a very long way from a native speaker uh....this guy's English is really excellent. it may be distinguishable from a native speaker by occasional poor phrasing or misuse of words, but it's really, really good. i think your criticism is overblown.

The guy's English _is_ excellent (100% intelligible and reads fine), but there can still be a long way between excellent/"functional fluency" and a native speaker. A native speaker wouldn't say "I'm exposed to English when I'm ~4 yo" (they would say "I _was_ exposed..." or "I've been exposed... since...") or capitalise "Job". Small things in the grand scheme of things, but they make it fairly obvious it's a non-nativ…

Thanks for your comments. I generally write at the speed of thought, and don't read my comments for a second time to correct my errors.

These tense changes happen when I change the structure of the comment in my head in the real time, and don't revisit the beginning of the sentence to align things back.

When I read them for the second time after I send, I spot the errors, but don't always correct them since they are online and intended people possibly read the comment already.

Maybe I should write a little slower while commenting, and read again before sending.

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#164

Post by ascorbic »

raarts wrote: post #82
ascorbic wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also Dutch is probably the major language that's most closely related to English.

Supposedly Frisian is linguistically closest to English, but Dutch is second yes. Others following close are Danish, Swedish and German.

Hence why I said "major" language. Scots is very closely related too, among languages without an army.

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#165

Post by bayindirh »

zawerf wrote: post #102
bayindirh wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually my language skills, regardless of language, varies according to my mood and energy, and it's late here. However, this is not to dismiss your comment as moot or anything, I'll keep this in mind. Thanks for the heads up.

I am a non-native speaker so I tried combing through a few of your comments to see how a native speaker might be able to pick you out as a non-native. > listen a little more attentive attentively > will sharpen you in daily English "sharpen" should be applied to the skill, not the person? ("sharpen your daily English") > Becoming fluent becomes after becoming familiar. "becomes after" sounds weird. Maybe "follows" or…

Thanks for your comments. I'll take note of these, and will revisit from time to time.

Most of the commas I use (before the "and" & "or"s) are Oxford Commas which dictates to use a comma before the conjunction if the sentences are separable. If the sentences are separable you don't use the comma. A more general rule is explained in [0].

My juries of my Master's and Ph.D. were very strict in this manner so I learned it the hard way. Now it's hardwired in my brain. Honestly I may be over using them, and will write more carefully.

[0] https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/30516/should-i-u...

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#166

Post by beojan »

aerovistae wrote: post #129
FearNotDaniel wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say it, but your written English reads very stilted to me, a native (British) English speaker. Assuming your spoken English is a similar level, your European colleagues are right - it is clear in the sense that it is easy to understand what you are trying to say. But your word choice and grammar are a very long way away from a native speaker. If you do have a desire to sound more natural in the way you use E…

> a very long way from a native speaker uh....this guy's English is really excellent. it may be distinguishable from a native speaker by occasional poor phrasing or misuse of words, but it's really, really good. i think your criticism is overblown.

> I'm exposed to English when I'm ~4 yo, and started to learn it at 7.

It's not. He didn't even use the right tense in the first clause. It should be: I've been exposed to English since I was 4 years old, and started to learn it at 7.

His English is certainly perfectly understandable, but also 'a very long way from a native speaker'.

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#167

Post by dragonwriter »

bayindirh wrote: post #165
zawerf wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a non-native speaker so I tried combing through a few of your comments to see how a native speaker might be able to pick you out as a non-native. > listen a little more attentive attentively > will sharpen you in daily English "sharpen" should be applied to the skill, not the person? ("sharpen your daily English") > Becoming fluent becomes after becoming familiar. "becomes after" sounds weird. Maybe "follows" or…

Thanks for your comments. I'll take note of these, and will revisit from time to time. Most of the commas I use (before the "and" & "or"s) are Oxford Commas which dictates to use a comma before the conjunction if the sentences are separable. If the sentences are separable you don't use the comma. A more general rule is explained in [0]. My juries of my Master's and Ph.D. were very strict in this manner so I learned i…

> Most of the commas I use (before the "and" & "or"s) are Oxford Commas which dictates to use a comma before the conjunction if the sentences are separable

You seem to be confusing the Oxford (or serial) comma [0] used after the penultimate item of a list with the rule on comma + conjunction (or semicolon with no conjunction) separating independent clauses as opposed to a bare conjunction separating dependent clauses.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#169

Post by dragonwriter »

aerovistae wrote: post #129
FearNotDaniel wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to say it, but your written English reads very stilted to me, a native (British) English speaker. Assuming your spoken English is a similar level, your European colleagues are right - it is clear in the sense that it is easy to understand what you are trying to say. But your word choice and grammar are a very long way away from a native speaker. If you do have a desire to sound more natural in the way you use E…

> a very long way from a native speaker uh....this guy's English is really excellent. it may be distinguishable from a native speaker by occasional poor phrasing or misuse of words, but it's really, really good. i think your criticism is overblown.

> uh....this guy's English is really excellent.

It has very good vocabulary, but a whole lot of verb tense and subject-verb disagreement errors, and use of the wrong parts of speech in ways which are (especially combined with the excellent vocabulary) very emblematic of a non-native English speaker who either learned late or learned early but had much of their use of English with other non-native speakers.

Now, it's very good for someone with either of those backgrounds (and much better than my command of any language that isn't English), but the upthread comment that it is very far from that of a native speaker is spot on.

Re: Ask HN: How did you become fluent in English?

#170

Post by jogjayr »

Natsu wrote: post #154
stordoff wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you learn old English from that (rather than using a modern English translation), it'd still give you a good base (grammar etc.) for then understanding modern English. It might lead to learning a slightly odd/old variation of English, and might not be the most efficient route, but I can see it being effective for being able to understand English.

For someone not from a Western culture, it will also help them understand a lot of cultural references that won't make much sense otherwise, like "seeing the handwriting on the wall."

> "seeing the handwriting on the wall."

I've known that phrase for...I don't even know how long. But I only learned yesterday that its origin was Biblical. I love how Dan Carlin says "mene mene tekel upharsin" and wanted to read more about it, and made that happy discovery.

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