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Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

nytimes.com

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Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#101

Post by Someone1234 »

koolba wrote: post #69
dperfect wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. Well, the payee is also usually verified to match the destination account, and a few other elements are technically required for it to be a legal financial instrument (even if banks don't spend the time to check them every time). Legally, a check could be written on the back of a napkin and still be valid - as long as it has a fe…

> It inherently relies on the legal system to sort things out after the fact, ... This is why it’s critical to have transaction alerts for all activity for your financial accounts. Otherwise you could have an ACH slip through that drains your account. You wouldn’t notice till the next time you logged in or, more likely, when you try to use your debit card and realize it’s cleaned out.

On that note, also consider your daily transfer limit.

Often times banks will set these limits unnecessarily high ($10K is common). Alerts are a good way to spot the fraud, but limits cap how much they can take in the mean time. Even if you will ultimately get refunded, it could take months of a slow investigation before that occurs.

I have mine set to double the most we've ever spent in a single month, and I've only had to increase it once (vehicle downpayment).

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#102

Post by supertrope »

matte_black wrote: post #24
lokedhs wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's the other way around. The credit card company, and by extension the merchant, have to prove that's your scribble. Here's one way to think about it. If it was the way you suggest then all an identity theif would have to do is to draw something on the dotted line and all of a sudden you're in a position where you have to prove your innocence.

The merchant can pull up the cctv. A signature becomes more damning if a neutral third party witnessed you signing the document.

It depends on how much money is at stake, what the alleged issue is, and what card network and network was used. Amex is infamous for almost always finding in favor of its cardholders, even more so than already cardholder biased CC isuers.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#103

Post by matte_black »

jjeaff wrote: post #64
matte_black wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, too easy to argue you signed a bunch of things you did not see. I want each page initialed and important disclaimers signed at the location they appear. Will make it much easier for me in court. Much harder for you.

When we raised money from several VCs (using some of the top legal firms in silicon valley and NYC) all we had to sign was the very last page which had only the signature lines on it. It could have been attached to anything. And in fact, sometimes, they emailed us the signature page separately for us to sign, scan and send back. So I don't really think there is really much legal benefit to having stuff on every page…

I recommend reading what you signed, you may be getting taken to the cleaners.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#104

Post by supertrope »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #83

Once in the UK, the cashier didn't want to take my credit card because there was no signature on the back. I wondered, which kind of graphology training do Tesco cashiers go through in order to be able to identify a fake signature?

None. It's just store policy. If the store can decrease its liability by checking for the presence of a signature they will train employees to do so. In other countries no one ever checks.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#105

Post by bigger_cheese »

vaughanb wrote: post #46
anitil wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's especially a mystery because even developments in payments from the US (eg Apple Pay) seem more widely adopted where I am (Aus) than in the US. Anyone with some insight as to why want to chip in?

> ... chip in Unintentional pun. The US public seems to have a huge reluctance to use the chips in the cards too. It's swipe and sign. (I'm also from Australia and signing for a credit card purchase went away decades ago. PayWave is really popular, my 89 yo mother loves it.)

Also Australian used to using Paywave. I traveled through Europe in January. My card was accepted without issue in most countries. There were a few countries like Greece where I need to use Pin. Outlier was in the UK where I had to sign and show photo id, which I found strange.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#107

Post by walrus01 »

skookumchuck wrote: post #17

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

Fun fact. You can theoretically write a USA legal bank check on the back side of a napkin and it will be honored. As you point out, it just needs the correct bank routing number and account number.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#108

Post by ada1981 »

supertrope wrote: post #98
ada1981 wrote: post #93

Interestingly, many credit card companies don't keep the required paperwork to legally collect on their loans. This is a business decision they've made not to be in compliance. Cases are routinely deemed uncollectible in court when challenged and they are required to remove the items from your credit report.

It depends on the issuer. Some will sue card (debt?) holders for as little as $1000, probably because attorney fees can be rolled into the judgement.

What I'm suggesting is that if you are taken to court, and you understand what defense to use, they literally will lose the suit and you will win the right to have it removed from your credit report for good.

I spoke to a lawfirm in PA who has literally won 100% of the time against Capital One in hundreds of debt cases because they can't provide the proper documentation required by law when asked to collect on their debts.

They primarily rely on people being afraid or ignorant of the laws.

This was mind blowing to me when I first realized it and then researched it and saw actual cases in real time be ruled for the defense.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#109

Post by timbit42 »

coldcode wrote: post #67

I took my new chip enabled CC to Germany 3 yrs ago and paid for a train ticket with it. The clerk said "ugh an American card" and had me sign some random piece of paper. I felt like an antique.

The last time I had to sign when using my credit card was at least 20 years ago.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#110

Post by yodon »

walrus01 wrote: post #107
skookumchuck wrote: post #17

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

Fun fact. You can theoretically write a USA legal bank check on the back side of a napkin and it will be honored. As you point out, it just needs the correct bank routing number and account number.

Most banks now have clauses allowing them to reject non-standard checks. Too many people writing “pay to the order of” on coconuts and pigs and other non-machine-readable items
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