Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S • Hacker News Board

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#61

Post by guitarbill » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:47 AM UTC

stevep98 wrote: post #29

There’s something missing from this article. When you sign a receipt, you’re not just providing a sample of your signature for comparison against the one on the card. You are signing a document, usually saying that ‘I agree to comply with the terms of the cardholder agreement’ If this is no longer necessary, the card issuers must have determined that they have other legal agreements which cover purchases, and that th…

> You are signing a document

This is in fact the only reason for a signature, it does fuck all to identify somebody, even if merchants were to check it, which they never do.

But with the amount of CCTV nowadays, that's probably more reliable than a signature.

Also ironic that anybody would describe PINs as the next step, I can't remember a time before PINs were used. Even EMV contactless payments are pretty common now, and provide benefits to the banks (liability shift/less chance of PIN compromise) and customers (quicker).

It's not a tech problem, it's a cultural one. You don't realise how much less friction, less hassle it can be until you've lived it. From my time in the US, it seems like it isn't exposed to outside ideas that much, maybe due to it's size.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#62

Post by skookumchuck » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:51 AM UTC

sleet wrote: post #42

skookumchuck wrote: post #17

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never used it.

I've been going back to written checks lately because of huge timewasting problems with electronic billpay systems - problems like the bank says they transmitted the money go talk to the vendor. The vendor says they never got it, go talk to the bank. Around and around and around.

In the past, I'd wave around the cancelled check and resolve it quickly. With ebanking, it's hours and hours on the phone and sitting in the bank manager's office refusing to leave until they deal with it.

With that particular one, I eventually made the bank issue a "clawback" on the funds they transmitted. Wonder of wonders, this caused the vendor to find the money they'd received :-)

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#63

Post by supertrope » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #11

Also please make handing me a receipt extinct too or only if requested. Especially at drive thru(s) where the receipts become trash I later have to do work .. aka clean up this annoying trash in my car.

As soon as there's an electronic equivalent that's universally compatible, as cheap and reliable, and is accepted by insurers/government/corporate expensing. Credit card and checking account statements are getting close but they don't list the items purchased, only the money.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#64

Post by jjeaff » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

matte_black wrote: post #20

miketery wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provide an index sheet attached to a stack of papers acknowledging documents included (title, version, date on document, page count). Check by each line, one signature overall.

Nope, too easy to argue you signed a bunch of things you did not see. I want each page initialed and important disclaimers signed at the location they appear. Will make it much easier for me in court. Much harder for you.

When we raised money from several VCs (using some of the top legal firms in silicon valley and NYC) all we had to sign was the very last page which had only the signature lines on it.

It could have been attached to anything. And in fact, sometimes, they emailed us the signature page separately for us to sign, scan and send back.

So I don't really think there is really much legal benefit to having stuff on every page to sign.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#65

Post by guitarbill » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #60

amanzi wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in NZ we don't sign for credit card transactions - I can't remember the last time I had to sign. Instead you insert your card into the reader and use your PIN to verify the transaction. And if the card reader has contactless payments (PayWave, PayPass, etc) then you don't even need your PIN for transactions less than $80.

Are you sure those are credit card (e.g. Master Card) and not debit (e.g. Maestro) transactions? I’ve noticed outside the USA credit cards are used very rarely while debit cards are used very heavily. In the USA, we have to sign at most places for any transaction over $50, but not under.

I've definitely had credit cards like that (also note that both MasterCard and Visa offer debit cards in many countries though). The point of sales terminal doesn't care, the only difference between credit and debit cards is on the banking side, and when making ATM withdrawals.

NZ, Aus, UK, are pretty much on the same level banking tech-wise (with UK bank-to-bank transfers being much quicker). Credit cards are common enough, but most people only have one or two, with lower credit limits than in the US.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#66

Post by Merad » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:52 AM UTC

itakedrugs wrote: post #50

sleet wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It amazes me that cheques are still used. I'm 36 and I've never issued a cheque, I think I was issued a cheque book with my first account but never used it.

I'm 36 too but I've issued hundreds of checks... and also issued some indirectly (Bank of America's bill payments issue paper checks to companies when they don't accept electronic payments)

Fair warning, I used to work for the company that makes BofA’s bill pay product, and it can have a mind of its own. Even payments that should always be electronic will sometimes decide to mail checks for reasons that you’ll never a get a good explanation for.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#67

Post by coldcode » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

I took my new chip enabled CC to Germany 3 yrs ago and paid for a train ticket with it. The clerk said "ugh an American card" and had me sign some random piece of paper. I felt like an antique.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#68

Post by supertrope » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:53 AM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #43

unethical_ban wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. They have to give you proof of what you bought for the thousands of times a day across the country there is a quarrel with the order.

Use Apple Pay or Android Pay ... you see the charge right on your home screen and view your transactions whenever. The receipt needs and will go the way of the dodo bird, credit card signatures and etc...

Apple Pay itself warns that the transaction log is not proof of purchase.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#69

Post by koolba » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 1:55 AM UTC

dperfect wrote: post #49

skookumchuck wrote: post #17

It turns out that a signature on a bank check means nothing. Neither does the payer name on the check. Not the amount in cursive. Nor does the check paper. The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. The rest of the check can be complete garbage, and the check will go through and the bank will pay it. Then the banks will blame you, the account holder. I learned this the hard…

> The only things that are checked are the digits of the amount, and the account number. Well, the payee is also usually verified to match the destination account, and a few other elements are technically required for it to be a legal financial instrument (even if banks don't spend the time to check them every time). Legally, a check could be written on the back of a napkin and still be valid - as long as it has a fe…

> It inherently relies on the legal system to sort things out after the fact, ...

This is why it’s critical to have transaction alerts for all activity for your financial accounts. Otherwise you could have an ACH slip through that drains your account. You wouldn’t notice till the next time you logged in or, more likely, when you try to use your debit card and realize it’s cleaned out.

Re: Credit Card Signatures Are About to Become Extinct in the U.S

#70

Post by voltagex_ » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 2:01 AM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #43

unethical_ban wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. They have to give you proof of what you bought for the thousands of times a day across the country there is a quarrel with the order.

Use Apple Pay or Android Pay ... you see the charge right on your home screen and view your transactions whenever. The receipt needs and will go the way of the dodo bird, credit card signatures and etc...

That's not an itemised receipt though.