Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed Wages • Hacker News Board

Re: Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed Wages

#131

Post by EliRivers » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 9:55 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #121

EliRivers wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union works by artificially constraining the labor pool, reducing the employer to buying from (typically) one seller (the union) instead of many (each employee individually). Closed-shop unions, you say? Do they still exist? I work in the UK, and I've worked in many workplaces where there were active unions, and the very idea that you'd have to be a member of the union to work there was laughable and, if I recall c…

Closed-shop unions are typical where I live. My mistake on them being typical across the world. However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union. The only other supply is those who want to bargain on their own, and even then you're probably not going to find too many who are willing to seve…

However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union.

Even that is another interesting thing; the idea that one of my employers, past and present, might actively seek out union members to employ, is so strange to me (and completely unworkable; I think it might even be illegal). The supply was in no way affected by the union.

In jobs I've had in the past, any benefits or agreement the union negotiates applied to all employees, regardless of union membership status, and were placed into contracts without any reference to unions at all. Collective bargaining by the union for improved conditions and pay existed; every employee benefited, union and non-union alike.

I suppose the moral of this is just that unions work very differently where you live to where I live.

Re: Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed Wages

#132

Post by randomdata » Mon, Apr 09, 2018, 3:44 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #131

randomdata wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Closed-shop unions are typical where I live. My mistake on them being typical across the world. However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union. The only other supply is those who want to bargain on their own, and even then you're probably not going to find too many who are willing to seve…

However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union. Even that is another interesting thing; the idea that one of my employers, past and present, might actively seek out union members to employ, is so strange to me (and completely unworkable; I think it might even be illegal). The supply was i…

> In jobs I've had in the past, any benefits or agreement the union negotiates applied to all employees

Exactly. This means there is effectively one seller. A greater supply would mean that there are people lining up to do the job for less.

Supply doesn't mean all people who want to work. means those who are willing to compete. Someone who wants way more conditions than even the union was able to negotiate at this place of business is not supply.

Re: Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed Wages

#133

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 9:12 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #132

EliRivers wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union. Even that is another interesting thing; the idea that one of my employers, past and present, might actively seek out union members to employ, is so strange to me (and completely unworkable; I think it might even be illegal). The supply was i…

> In jobs I've had in the past, any benefits or agreement the union negotiates applied to all employees Exactly. This means there is effectively one seller. A greater supply would mean that there are people lining up to do the job for less. Supply doesn't mean all people who want to work. means those who are willing to compete. Someone who wants way more conditions than even the union was able to negotiate at this pl…

[deleted]

Re: Supply and Demand Does a Poor Job of Explaining Depressed Wages

#134

Post by EliRivers » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 9:18 AM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #132

EliRivers wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, even in an open shop, the collective bargaining is still limiting the employer to a single vendor with respect to those it wants to hire that are engaged with the union. Even that is another interesting thing; the idea that one of my employers, past and present, might actively seek out union members to employ, is so strange to me (and completely unworkable; I think it might even be illegal). The supply was i…

> In jobs I've had in the past, any benefits or agreement the union negotiates applied to all employees Exactly. This means there is effectively one seller. A greater supply would mean that there are people lining up to do the job for less. Supply doesn't mean all people who want to work. means those who are willing to compete. Someone who wants way more conditions than even the union was able to negotiate at this pl…

I think I'm happy with this. Sounds a lot better than the race to the bottom I see in some countries.

I think also we see a lot less union activity than you do. I couldn't tell you who was in the union. The most prominent thing they do is put up some posters reminding people of employment law. I never saw them make wage negotiations and to a large extent, that's not what they do. So far as I could tell, they principally exist to provide another channel for enforcing employment law and ensuring safety standards in the workplace were being met, and in the even of unfair treatment provide an employee with support and legal representation. Maybe if they were heavily into negotiating wages and so on, it would be different (I think in some industries maybe they still do that), but I've never seen them do that in any company for which I've worked. Seems that unions do very different things in our respective countries; I expect them to protect me from illegal activity on the part of the powerful, rather than win anything for me.