Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is • Hacker News Board

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#141

Post by detaro » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

ptype wrote: post #139

CydeWeys wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what you consider IP addresses to be, it matters what European regulatory authorities consider them to be. And yes, many IP addresses can be linked to a specific person. I don't doubt that, by being logged in to Google, Facebook, and a bunch of other services, and by having an ISP that provides a unique IP address per subscriber, that the majority of sites out there that use 3rd party tracking know…

To be clear, I am only talking about the interpretation of the regulation, not my own considerations. The article made it sound like IP addresses are always personal data. My point is that, if I run a website and keep generic nginx log files, is it really personable data with regards to my website? Yes, the ISP can link that IP address back to a person, but if that person came to me as the website administrator and a…

Yes, it is. That you don't necessarily have the ability to make that connection doesn't matter, although if it turns out you have it of course makes matters worse. (This also isn't new under GDPR, current european law interpretation already supports this. See http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc... for the court decision firmly establishing this: Since the visitors provider has the data, and will share this data in some cases, it's possible to establish the link and the dat thus has to be protected accordingly)

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#142

Post by beojan » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #135

In fact, I think the author is underestimating the impact, right here: "Of course, making this change will have a dramatic impact on your revenue for single-visit traffic, because you basically have to design your ad model to work completely differently from how it works today." No, it will basically make a newsmedia site unprofitable. I think it is the EU that has not fully thought this through. Most of the news ind…

> No, it will basically make a newsmedia site unprofitable. I think it is the EU that has not fully thought this through. Most of the news industry is already sickly, financially, and they mostly have no model other than advertising (with a very few exceptions).

We have publicly funded broadcasters in most EU countries. The ad-supported news sites, on the other hand, are generally doing more harm than good.

News outlets existed before the web, so they're not going to be threatened by breaking the ad-supported website model. If anything, the traditional newspapers will be saved by this, because if free online news disappears, people will start buying newspaper subscriptions again.

> I think either the EU will backtrack on this once they see that Google and Facebook can easily force people to consent

They can't. The consent has to be for a specific purpose.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#143

Post by molf » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #94

briandear wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do American constitutional protections apply to Americans living in France? I am having a hard time understanding GDPR jurisdictional power. US citizens in France aren’t protected by the US Fair Credit Act with French banks, even when those French banks have US subisidiaries because a French company in France isn’t subject to US legal jurisdiction. Even FATCA doesn’t subject a French bank to US law — it subjects F…

This is my main question actually. While most of GDPR is common sense and shouldn't be much of a burden on companies[1], I was always confused about jurisdiction. While most larger companies have a legal presence somewhere within the EU that can be held accountable for this, I do wonder how the EU is supposed to be enforce penalties on a company outside of the EU. [1]: well, the difficulty grows the larger your compa…

I have the feeling nobody knows this. To me it seems this part of GDPR is particularly targeted at major companies and they can be held accountable through subsidiaries or branch offices in the EU. It doesn't seem very likely to me that small businesses that happen to sell to EU customers too will be the primary target of enforcement anytime soon.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#144

Post by yaps8 » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

martin-adams wrote: post #109

gonmf wrote: post #77

"If you look at what is happening around us, you can see very clear signals that the public has had enough." No, outside of a few echo chambers, no one cares about privacy or knows what GDPR is. Until GDPR shows everyday on the evening news for weeks it will not be well-known, and there are many things more important to most people than online privacy. Heck, Cambridge Analytica was only a scandal because the "bad guy…

I am yet to find one friend or family member who has changed their attitude or behaviour towards Facebook after the Cambridge Analytica.

This is all anecdotes but I've had some (non tech) family members ask about the facebook privacy scandal and they wanted to review their privacy settings.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#145

Post by GijsjanB » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #135

In fact, I think the author is underestimating the impact, right here: "Of course, making this change will have a dramatic impact on your revenue for single-visit traffic, because you basically have to design your ad model to work completely differently from how it works today." No, it will basically make a newsmedia site unprofitable. I think it is the EU that has not fully thought this through. Most of the news ind…

Privacy first, profit second. I think that is a wise decision the EU makes (disclosure: I'm an EU citizen). 'The media' surviving on a distorted revenue model is not healthy and I will not believe it is necessary to break your customers privacy in order to make a profit.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#146

Post by shripadk » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #135

In fact, I think the author is underestimating the impact, right here: "Of course, making this change will have a dramatic impact on your revenue for single-visit traffic, because you basically have to design your ad model to work completely differently from how it works today." No, it will basically make a newsmedia site unprofitable. I think it is the EU that has not fully thought this through. Most of the news ind…

Or it could go the other way. If all media outlets decide to put up a paywall it forces people to actually pay for reading the news. Currently there are a few news outlets who plead for ad blockers to be turned off while still offering content for free. And since ad blockers allow you to add exceptions this doesn't create a level playing field between those outlets that advertise and those that are locked behind a paywall. GDPR might end up forcing the outlets reliant on advertising to also shift to paywalls effectively creating the level playing field that was lacking earlier.

Let's face it, despite social media being a great enabler for realtime news the quality of news is sub-par. The biggest bane of social media is the transfer of responsibility of filtering real news from a firehose of fake news, to the end user. Until that issue is solved people are going to probably pay for news. This is just my speculation of how things might go after GDPR.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#147

Post by molf » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

blowski wrote: post #129

molf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful with hiding everything behind "consent", because consent cannot be a precondition for providing a service. Put differently: if a user does not consent, you cannot refuse them the service if the data you wanted to collect is not strictly necessary to provide the service. The alternative is to only collect data that is strictly necessary to provide the service. In that case GDPR allows you to collect the dat…

> consent cannot be a precondition for providing a service IANAL. This is more nuanced than it appears, as it is balanced against the firm's right to conduct business. If you're generating leads by providing a whitepaper, then realistically you're not going to be penalised for saying "you need to consent to receive our newsletter to access this whitepaper". On the other hand, an airline saying "you can only book a fl…

I think we agree; it seems better to rely on legitimate interest than ask for consent for everything. (Although it does require thinking about and actually having a legitimate interest.)

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#148

Post by kuschku » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

pspeter3 wrote: post #36

Does this mean every site will need to ask permission for Google Analytics?

Yes, and if the user refuses to give that permission, the site has to honor that, and can’t refuse to provide its content. Same as the original cookie law, which almost everyone did wrong (thanks to the UK national implementation of it)

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#149

Post by adventured » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

madeofpalk wrote: post #94

briandear wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do American constitutional protections apply to Americans living in France? I am having a hard time understanding GDPR jurisdictional power. US citizens in France aren’t protected by the US Fair Credit Act with French banks, even when those French banks have US subisidiaries because a French company in France isn’t subject to US legal jurisdiction. Even FATCA doesn’t subject a French bank to US law — it subjects F…

This is my main question actually. While most of GDPR is common sense and shouldn't be much of a burden on companies[1], I was always confused about jurisdiction. While most larger companies have a legal presence somewhere within the EU that can be held accountable for this, I do wonder how the EU is supposed to be enforce penalties on a company outside of the EU. [1]: well, the difficulty grows the larger your compa…

> I do wonder how the EU is supposed to be enforce penalties on a company outside of the EU

Realistically, they can't and won't unless it's a very large scale that's worth pursuing, for a multi-national corporation with enough money to pay a big fine. If a company is not doing business in the EU, not selling into the EU, they can of course entirely ignore the GDPR.

In the case of a large company that sells into the EU, and refuses to obey GDPR, what you'd likely see is the EU pursuing that company on its domestic turf legally. A company out of NYC for example could be pursued in a court there for fines related to GDPR violations. The larger those violations, the more likely it'd be pursued by the EU across the Atlantic. This is how it works already, there's a lot of international business precedence. The stronger the legal system in the home country you're pursuing the multi-national into, the better for the EU's case.

If I set up a business in Germany, dump large amounts of toxic waste and cause very costly environmental damage, and then (somehow) quickly flee the country leaving no assets or business behind - but back in NYC my company has vast assets, you'd find the company pursued from Germany to its home in NYC for those damages. They still have to win the case of course.

The EU fortunately wasn't dumb enough to attempt a global claim on regulating privacy. They pushed the line pretty far, but did not cross their own boundaries. I think they fully understood there was no scenario where the US and China (40% of the global economy) - or frankly most nations - were going to care about EU law projections external its jurisdiction.

Re: Publishers Haven't Realized How Big a Deal GDPR Is

#150

Post by kuschku » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 8:13 PM UTC

home_boi wrote: post #126

I don't think the legislators understand the technical complexity it would take to comply with GDPR nor the benefits of tracking for the internet. Tracking makes markets more efficient. 1. Advertisers can tune their ads/targeting to get higher conversions and sales. They pay higher PPMs and PPCs. 2. Publishers get higher PPMs and PPCs. This motivates them to invest more in their content and website because each new u…

> Relevant ads also save users (the segment that buys stuff from ads) time from researching for products and services.

That is specifically not wanted.

Several European governments are subsidizing projects to provide consistent and exhaustive comparison tests between many products instead, so customers can for each category of product they may need find massive comparison tables, find which products fulfill their needs, and can buy the cheapest one.

This makes the market more efficient, because the best product for the lowest price wins, instead of the best marketed product.

One such example is the Stiftung Warentest: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiftung_Warentest