In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost • Hacker News Board

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#61

Post by NedIsakoff » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #59

NedIsakoff wrote: post #27

I'm Asian/Canadian (arrived in Canada in 1988 at 8) and have worked in the US since 2009. I consider myself a 0.5 generation immigrant. Talking my parents, other first generation immigrants, and even some second generation etc. They do have a common view. If we came here with very little (my parents arrived with $200 in their pockets), worked hard, and eventually became successful then why can't other people do the s…

> If we came here with very little (my parents arrived with $200 in their pockets), worked hard, and eventually became successful then why can't other people do the same. such logic error is called "survival bias" - they only look at those who didn't fail by the system.

Of course, but that is their point of view.

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#62

Post by pedrosorio » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

TomK32 wrote: post #43

mirkules wrote: post #24

This really is a regional problem. I live around the area, near the beautiful Santa Ana trail which connects two counties to the ocean. A few months ago, I rode down the 40-mile stretch for the first time in a long time, and I was absolutely shocked to see the extent of the tent city near the Anaheim Angels stadium. The people living there were living on hard times, it felt post-apocalyptic in some sense. The tent ar…

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

> Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

Consider the homeless person for a moment. Given the same population with the choice to (A) stay indoors (in whatever solutions are provided by the government) or (B) be homeless, how would you expect the probability distribution of people choosing B instead of A to look like in Finland and Southern California?

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#63

Post by pedrosorio » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:26 PM UTC

ranman wrote: post #50

TomK32 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

Finland has a population that is 70x smaller than the US. They also invest heavily in education. I assume other countries struggle scaling programs from 5 million people to 350 million... and that’s why many of the great programs that Finland has don’t scale to elsewhere.

Population, education, "homogeneity". Why don't we just leave it at "Have you spent a winter in Finland and Southern California?"

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#64

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

NedIsakoff wrote: post #27

I'm Asian/Canadian (arrived in Canada in 1988 at 8) and have worked in the US since 2009. I consider myself a 0.5 generation immigrant. Talking my parents, other first generation immigrants, and even some second generation etc. They do have a common view. If we came here with very little (my parents arrived with $200 in their pockets), worked hard, and eventually became successful then why can't other people do the s…

[deleted]

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#65

Post by pedrosorio » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

NedIsakoff wrote: post #27

I'm Asian/Canadian (arrived in Canada in 1988 at 8) and have worked in the US since 2009. I consider myself a 0.5 generation immigrant. Talking my parents, other first generation immigrants, and even some second generation etc. They do have a common view. If we came here with very little (my parents arrived with $200 in their pockets), worked hard, and eventually became successful then why can't other people do the s…

> I consider myself a 0.5 generation immigrant.

I believe this is usually referred to as 1.5 generation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant_generations#1.5_gene...

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#66

Post by stefs » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

ranman wrote: post #50

TomK32 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

Finland has a population that is 70x smaller than the US. They also invest heavily in education. I assume other countries struggle scaling programs from 5 million people to 350 million... and that’s why many of the great programs that Finland has don’t scale to elsewhere.

that's always the argument: "doesn't work here because the population size is n times as big". but i don't understand why this should be the case. it's not that the culture in the u.s. is fundamentally different. and it's not like their budget to combat homelessness couldn't also be n times as big. and the problem in the u.s. is pressing (at least compared to other rich countries) and, one would think, warrant drastic measures.

i think one of the underlying problems is that homelessness is a very diverse problem - people are homeless for very different reasons and need very different solutions - and mostly a symptom of underlying problems that are actually hard to fix. i.e. fixing the symptom would be easy compared to fixing the many, many root issues, because the solutions may run counter to american cultural values, which aren't a problem in countries like finland (an expanded social safety net, for example).

decriminalization of (hard) drugs as seen in portugal might be easier to implement (at least under the next democrat government).

on the other hand i fear that a rising income disparity all over the world might actually cause the problem to worsen in other countries that don't have a huge pressing homelessness problem right now and follow americas lead in the latest tent city fashions.

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#67

Post by boyaka » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

blondie9x wrote: post #30

Homelessness isn't a regional problem. It's a national problem. There needs to be an area designated for them at a a national level. Pushing people from place to place regionally is a terrible solution. An area needs to be designated for them nationally like Native American reservations when they were first created. The national solution needs to have programs to assist with addiction, mental health, and job training…

In response to other children of this post: perhaps you can give more evidence as to how this solution would end up like the harsh imprisonment by oppressive regimes? Why do you instantly shoot down one of the only creative solutions in this entire discussion, other than trying to raise more money to throw at it (which clearly has not even begun to solve these problems).

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#68

Post by chrischen » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #56

chrischen wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would assume that the homeless were caused by / came from Irving. That’s unlikely, as there are no borders in the US and people are free to move about. See this article on how US cities pay homeless people to leave town, and they end up somewhere else, as someone else’s problem: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/dec/... Problem is nobody wants them, yet no one will enact policies that will…

> That would assume that the homeless were caused by / came from Irving. Something can be your responsibility even if it's not your fault. Particular people with particular problems is a local issue. Particular tent cities hurting particular parks or businesses is also a local issue. Go ask a local social worker or police officer. They know everyone on a first name basis. They just don't have anywhere to go with thei…

If Irving absorbs the cost of it, then other communities will simply keep sending their homeless. The problem will never be solved this way unless it's pushed back to its source.

> So instead of shifting responsibility in one way or another, local governments and communities need to organize more around these issues.

That's exactly what happened. Other communities shifted responsibility to Irving. By doing nothing, they are continuing to skirt responsibility. You're not going to get anywhere by forcing or shaming whatever current community is to shoulder the whole problem. For all you know, the encampments got there because of some initial sympathy and homeless-forward policies, and now you think it'd be fair to punish them for having shown some compassion?

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#69

Post by stmfreak » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

TomK32 wrote: post #43

mirkules wrote: post #24

This really is a regional problem. I live around the area, near the beautiful Santa Ana trail which connects two counties to the ocean. A few months ago, I rode down the 40-mile stretch for the first time in a long time, and I was absolutely shocked to see the extent of the tent city near the Anaheim Angels stadium. The people living there were living on hard times, it felt post-apocalyptic in some sense. The tent ar…

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

Most of these people had homes and jobs once, but prefer drugs and alcohol over the rules and expectations of those who provided said homes and jobs.

Homelessness is not a sudden condition, it is the result of thousands of choices to indulge in selfish behavior. Inflicting family oriented communities with shelters for these people is the wrong approach. We need to provided a path out of homelessness that enforces sobriety, sets behavioral expectations, and demands they get jobs. Sadly, such shelters exist and yet most prefer to stay drunk on the streets.

Re: In fighting homeless camp, Irvine's Asians win, but at a cost

#70

Post by brudgers » Sun, Apr 08, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

TomK32 wrote: post #43

mirkules wrote: post #24

This really is a regional problem. I live around the area, near the beautiful Santa Ana trail which connects two counties to the ocean. A few months ago, I rode down the 40-mile stretch for the first time in a long time, and I was absolutely shocked to see the extent of the tent city near the Anaheim Angels stadium. The people living there were living on hard times, it felt post-apocalyptic in some sense. The tent ar…

> I don't know what the answer is, or how to deal with it. The answer is to give them a home, help to get back into a regular life and make sure they don't run into the same issues again that led to their homelessness. Finland has managed to achieve this, why can't the rest of the western world follow?

The camps are people's homes. That's the language issue when talking about "the homeless." It constrains our discussion of homes narrowly. We limit "home" to particular built structures, living arrangements, and cultural values.