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Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

nytimes.com

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Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#111

Post by ada1981 »

Fnoord wrote: post #82
fogzen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes... Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.

> Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet [sic] understand, and both may cause serious side effects. This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying... If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science. > How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity…

Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use.

Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing.

Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#112

Post by pseudoscience »

make3 wrote: post #54
intralizee wrote: post #15

I've seen enough people in my life become addicted to antidepressants because of a traumatizing event in their life for me to have a dark outlook on it. Instead of therapy or taking real course of action to resolve the trauma/inner problem, a doctor will just label a person suffering depression. The greatest use of an umbrella-word "Depression" to get people on prescription medication and typically the problem never…

There is no doubt that antidepressant therapy needs to be combined with psychotherapy, sports, meditation and just reducing the unhealthy parts of your life. The cost of taking antidepressants is really low however. Most of the time, they have almost no side effects, and are proven to help https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847 Where I live, they are pretty cheap. I find that there is undue bias against antidepress…

That is absolute rubbish and you know it. There are thousands, if not millions of cases where people have had side effects.

The bias isn't undue, most of the time it's factual and comes from anecdotal experience. You sound like you haven't ever been on antidepressants, and are instead regurgitating soundbites from a medical journal.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#113

Post by jdietrich »

dimal wrote: post #90
cassowary37 wrote: post #71

Ah, another Benedict Carey antidepressant hatchet job. Anecdotes about withdrawal symptoms + alarmist statistics about number of Americans on antidepressants + vague questions about lack of data suggesting that we know little about antidepressant long-term safety. A few important points: 1. Antidepressants can truly change people's lives. Not everyone's, and they're not the only treatment that works. Somehow this rep…

> If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them Drug makers have no incentive to see them. I can say from experience that I have seen them. I spent two months out of work when I had to discontinue Effexor. Other people complained about “brain zaps” and were largely ignored. My doctor never warned me. The evidence is there but there if you look, but there is no one…

>Drug makers have no incentive to see them.

Drug makers aren't the people looking, the regulators are.

Here in the UK, the medicines regulator operates an open reporting system for adverse drug effects. Any patient or healthcare professional can make a report of an adverse drug event, no matter how minor. The collected data is publicly available in anonymised summary form. 110 countries share detailed reports of adverse drug events through the WHO VigiBase, which is monitored for risk signals by a dedicated team at the Uppsala Monitoring Centre. Potential safety problems are then fed back to national regulators.

All of this reporting apparatus was put in place after the thalidomide disaster. It's designed as an extremely sensitive early-warning system to detect subtle or rare adverse events. For the most part, it works. I'd suggest taking a look at the WHO Pharmaceuticals Newsletter, which shows how this information sharing works in practice.

https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ https://www.who-umc.org/vigibase/vigibase/ http://www.who.int/medicines/publications/WHO-Pharmaceutical...

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#114

Post by ineedasername »

mirimir wrote: post #89
Fnoord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I lost interest in sex, and it took forever to reach orgasm. This is a common side effect of SSRIs. I have the same, but I very much enjoy that side effect. Saves time, and already got a child anyway. I still love pleasuring my significant other just as much as before, btw. People who have bi-polar usually get mood stabilisers such as lithium prescribed. Perhaps anti-psychotics? SSRIs are known to be problema…

Lithium sucks, or so I've heard. Modafinil (antinarcoleptic, originally) plus lamotrigine (anticonvulsant, originally) works well for me. It's easy to tweak the ratio as circumstances warrant. Edit: About sex. My wife at the time did like that I took longer to reach orgasm. However, after we separated, I discovered that wearing a condom made orgasm unreachable. And that did become a problem. Albeit an amusing one, in…

Nice to see modafinil getting a mention. I've found it to be near-miraculous as a fast acting antidepressant that helps combat the cognitive downsides of other meds.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#115

Post by pasabagi »

dimal wrote: post #109
DanBC wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discontinuation effects are listed on the patient information leaflet for venlafaxine. Patients, at least in the UK, are always given this leaflet with every packet of medication. https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/product/4487/pil > If you stop taking venlafaxine suddenly you may get withdrawal reactions (see section 3) [...] > Do not stop taking your treatment or reduce the dose without the advice of your doctor even…

And of course, all patients read the long pamphlets extensively /s. We depend on our doctors to explain risks like this. And at the time I was discontinuing (not abruptly) the concept of “brain zaps” was met with great skepticism. I am fairly certain that some of the side effects you list (electric shock sensations) were added more recently. It took years of patients being ignored for the idea to be taken seriously.

I've also rarely received accurate advice regarding the likely effects and side-effects of anti-depressants - but I think calling brain zaps a 'risk' is a bit much. Maybe my zaps were nicer than yours, but I don't remember them being particularly painful - except one time I fell in the shower.

Anti-depressants, especially something like venlafaxine, are strong meds for a strong condition. It would be surprising if they had no side effects - and honestly, if you go to a psychiatrist instead of a normal doctor, you usually get a dose that's fine-tuned to the extent that you don't get them.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#116

Post by fogzen »

Fnoord wrote: post #75
fogzen wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don’t fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis. If it’s irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it’s irresponsible to prescribe SSRI’s as well

> What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Except that's not how it works. How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved. LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure what drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer…

You keep saying "professional" as if that means anything here.

The professionals that without any evidence promoted the low-serotonin theory of depression. Who, after over a decade of prescribing SSRI's finally admitted that low serotonin doesn't cause depression. Yeah, those professionals. They don't know what causes depression yet they're happy to keep prescribing drugs. But it's the "self-medicating new age hippies" that are irresponsible?

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#117

Post by ada1981 »

DanBC wrote: post #99
ada1981 wrote: post #51

Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms including deceased emotions in general. There are many alternatives that have been shown to be as or more effective. Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. Spending an afternoon a week outside. Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relati…

> Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases This isn't true. We know that antidepressants are significantly more effective than placaebo for most people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 We are now gathering evidence about which antidepressants are most effective and least likely to cause people to stop using them: https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/con…

I'd hardly say that this meta analysis is definitive, but useful.

Here is a recent meta analysis suggesting not much more than placebo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/

I'm the study you referenced, did you notice if they compared it to active placebo or just placebo? It seemed they did an 8 week eval which is still within the 3 month window in which active placebo seems to be at work.

Also, why would we want people to be less likely to stop using antidepressants (if I read your comment correctly).

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#118

Post by ada1981 »

thatsamonad wrote: post #5
tempagain567i wrote: post #2

The use of these anti-depressants is extremely irresponsible. Most people who use them dont even have an inherant chemical problem. This will all be looked back upon as very stupid indeed.

I take Wellbutrin and Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) every single day for PTSD and I wouldn’t really be able to function without them. I really wouldn’t call myself or the psychiatrist who prescribed them irresponsible. I’d say it’s equally irresponsible to make a blanket statement about something that does actually help people in certain circumstances. That being said, there are a number of GPs out there who prescribe…

Have you had a chance to apply for a phase 3 trial of MDMA for PTSD? Maps.org

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#119

Post by jdietrich »

gabept wrote: post #107
make3 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta studies still show that antidepressants help more than the placebo https://www.bmj.com/content/360/bmj.k847

Even if that was true, it doesn't invalidate the fact there is no scientific reasoning behind the theory of chemical imbalance.

We don't really know how antidepressants work. We don't know how a lot of drugs work. Nobody knows why acetaminophen (paracetamol) cures your headache. Knowing how a drug works is useful but not essential; modern medicine relies on hundreds of drugs with unknown mechanisms of action.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#120

Post by ineedasername »

DanBC wrote: post #85
wbkang wrote: post #64

Is there a reason why people are trying to stop taking it? If it helps your life, why not keep using it? For example, I have been taking antihistamine daily for the last 18 years for skin allergy. My QoL is significantly better with it, and unless there is some magical cure, I don't see why I should stop just because it's a "drug", "chemical" or "unnatural". For example, from the article, > "A year and a half after s…

Because depression isn't a lifelong thing, it should be at worst episodic. Because SSRIs have side effects, and you tolerate those if it's preventing depression, but you might not tolerate them if you're now taking a medication for life.

it should be at worst episodic.

Except it's not for large groups of people. And for anyone with a history of multiple episodes, the long ramp up time needed for antidepressants is extremely risky to try an "as needed" approach.

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