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Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

nytimes.com

71–80 of 233 posts

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#71
Ah, another Benedict Carey antidepressant hatchet job. Anecdotes about withdrawal symptoms + alarmist statistics about number of Americans on antidepressants + vague questions about lack of data suggesting that we know little about antidepressant long-term safety.

A few important points:

1. Antidepressants can truly change people's lives. Not everyone's, and they're not the only treatment that works. Somehow this reporter tends to consistently overlook the clear evidence of benefit (I think this recent meta-analysis was posted on hn: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251)

2. Withdrawal symptoms are common if antidepressants are stopped abruptly - some of the folks who reported these symptoms originally have been favorite targets of Benedict Carey, ironically (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9396960). That's why docs encourage tapering antidepressants.

3. The article doesn't distinguish between this sort of short-term withdrawal (common), and longer-term problems with discontinuation (likely quite rare) - they're very very different phenomena.

4. In some cases, difficulty with discontinuing longer-term is a result of persistent depression and anxiety (or returning depression and anxiety). It's not polite to point this out.

5. It's hard to imagine the Times writing an article about the problem with statins being that, once you stop them, cholesterol increases again.

6. If there were substantial long-term risks associated with antidepressants, we would have seen them - and believe me, people have looked and are looking.

7. BUT - we /do/ need more research to understand long-term effects of antidepressant treatment; this absence of systematic long-term study is true for most meds, frankly, but that's no excuse. My question would be: Who pays for it? There's no shortage of investigators who would be delighted to study it. But try getting a foundation, or NIH, to support such a study.

/rant

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#73

>Yet withdrawal has never been a focus of drug makers or government regulators, who felt antidepressants could not be addictive and did far more good than harm. They're not addictive. They cause dependence. There is an important difference. Addictive things increase incentive salience of stimuli associated with the drug. They increase wanting. And that increased wanting leads to increased usage. Dependence on a drug…

While your differentiation between addiction and dependency is certainly correct as the medical profession defines these thing, simple dependency would sound like addiction to a lot of average people.

Further, it should be obvious that dependency is a problem. If the medical profession thinks it's solved that problem by redefining words, I'd say state regulation is pretty appropriate step.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#74
post #57
post #35

The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science: https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalanc...

SSRI’s are no more effective than placebo or exercise in multiple studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3674785/#

but when you look across 522 studies with more than 100k participants, evidence of efficacy is indisputable: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#75
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are suggesting that depressed people may want to take LSD in lieu of SSRIs, which is horrendous advice that can, for example, trigger panic attacks in those with comorbid anxiety. Please don't.

What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don’t fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis. If it’s irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it’s irresponsible to prescribe SSRI’s as well

> What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s?

Except that's not how it works.

How it works is that SSRIs have been tested in trials, and are approved.

LSD isn't. When someone says "try LSD" (or psilocybin which seems the newest rage these days) it means they'd illegally acquire the drug (who know for sure what drug they bought? [EDIT: and who knows the dosage/strength of active substance(s)?]), and administer it recreationally without the aid of a professional.

SSRIs, in contrast, are clinically tested, legally acquired, and administered under the guidance of a professional.

> Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc.

Yes, but these side effects are widely documented. There are more common side effects, btw. These are the extreme ones you mentioned, and also the most rare ones. Many side effects are temporary. And if you are suicidal, it is unlikely you get SSRIs prescribed. Unless you lie about that, of course, but if you lie to your MD you're on your own.

My recommendation is simple: seek professional help. If you don't want to take SSRIs, fair enough; your MD won't force you. Heck, they might even be reluctant to prescribe them. But professional help is much more than drugs. Think about CBT, mindfulness, under the guidance of professionals; not self-medicating new age hippies.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#76
post #40

"Cannot stop" is kind of strong. More like "have nasty side effects while tapering off and puss out". Having been on the Zoloft,I can say is got a black box warning for a reason and should only be taken if you're seriously in danger of self harm. Shrinks like it because it keeps people coming back. People like it because they're not willing to confront their real problems and want something to numb themselves out. Ju…

As someone currently on a somewhat high dose of sertraline (100mg b.d.), "numb themselves out" feels like an odd descriptor to use. That seems more like a benzodiazapine-class drug, and certainly doesn't match my experiences (it makes me more prone to insomnia, which I would not associate with a numbing agent) and wouldn't be otherwise be enjoyable/desirable but for the fact that it treats real problems (for me, OCD and anxiety disorder).

> Just say "No!"

They are probably over-prescribed, but a blanket "No!" ignores the cases where they do work, and provide a significant increase in quality of life.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#77
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are suggesting that depressed people may want to take LSD in lieu of SSRIs, which is horrendous advice that can, for example, trigger panic attacks in those with comorbid anxiety. Please don't.

What study shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRI’s? Antidepressants can also cause psychotic episodes, panic attacks, suicide, etc. Both drugs have mechanisms of action that we don’t fully understand and both affect the brains homeostasis. If it’s irresponsible to prescribe LSD for depression it’s irresponsible to prescribe SSRI’s as well

You get SSRIs under supervision of someone with a medical qualificationa and a professional registration and an indemnity insurance policy.

That's not the case (currently) for LSD, which will be of unknown quantity and unknown purity. It might not even be LSD.

LSD may be great, but telling people with a potentially fatal illness to just go try it is fantastically irresponsible.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#78

What's worse is that the longer you take certain psychiatric drugs, the greater the long-term damage it can possibly cause to almost disability. It's being between a rock and a hard place. I've taken Abilify, Wellbutrin, Seroquel, and a number of other drugs. The biggest problem when you enter the psychiatric system is you go through pill roulette. You take a drug, try it, see what works, and keep trying till you fin…

Seroquel is part of a family of drugs (antipsychotics) which have some of the worst long term adverse effects of all psychiatric drugs. Everything from tardive dyskenisia to enlargement of the ventricles of the brain are routinely observed over decades of use, and that’s not even mentioning adverse effects which appear almost immediately. In general though, these drugs have little or nothing to do with antidepressant…

An alternate to psychosis as something to interrupt is that it's a biological process that happens when the default mode network isn't sufficient.

The ideal environment is one in which the psychosis can complete.

It's very similar to a psychedelic journey in that with the right set and setting it can lead to deeper compassion, clarity and connection.

I've been through a number of such experiences over the years; I used to be terrified of them and tried to avoid them at all costs.

Now, it's very much an initiation into whatever the next level of my life demands of me. I've learned to make symptoms bigger vs supressing them and in doing so, I recover vital parts of myself.

Without this orientation, I would never have survived so called schizophrenia, bipolar, suicidal depression, psychosis.

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#79
post #6

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. Modern medicine is not in the business of curing diseases. It's all about disease and symptom management.

yep, all those cancer cures somehow slipped out despite our best efforts to keep them secret. c'mon, let's be real. The folks who try to develop new treatments are people with family members and friends who get sick too. The reason we struggle for cures is that it's hard!!!

Re: Many People Taking Antidepressants Discover They Cannot Quit

#80
post #35

The "Chemical Imbalence Theory", although heavely popular and promoted, is largely unfounded on science: https://joannamoncrieff.com/2014/05/01/the-chemical-imbalanc...

Luckily most doctors don't push this theory, and you don't need it for SSRIs to be effective.
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