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Before cancer kills, it cheats

news.harvard.edu

11–20 of 67 posts

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#11

Here are some ideas: Look at the functional call stack. Its a slice of the linear address space that’s actively being used and it is strikingly similar to the promoter regions of the genome. Like some pathogens, hackers randomly try to hit that sweet spot that will jump to the special program. Operating systems are like simple biological organisms that evolve in response to various influences (cybersecurity it seems…

I have no idea what you are talking about but does human biology have computation at the core? Any papers on these?

biology have computation at the core?

Doubtful. You can to computing with DNA http://dna.caltech.edu but it is still debated if the actual role of DNA is being a code (some recently weasel out form that stance by saying it's an “app”, like there's a difference, machine code being a code). Coding theory applied to DNA yields inconclusive results. Galois theory usually has power over any kind of information encoding, cryptographic, computable or not. One constructed one for DNA convinced mathematicians it's not the way to go at all. If it's computation it's nothing like what we mean by any model computation, you may as well say it's magic instead of making stretched analogies.

About OpenBSD and evolution, that's so fetch... these folk invented the attack in the first place, not evolved a response to some market force in the early oughties. Broadly I don't think designed systems are in business of evolving, otherwise living organisms could perhaps evolved electro-hydrostatic instead of hydraulic power system with a pump being a single point of failure.

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#12
post #7
post #3

A future where cancer is controlled but not cured is just as good and might be easier to achieve. I hope science gets there before I get cancer which is inevitable, unless I die from a heart attack.

Agreed. My wife is going through this now, and the primary issue is the uncertainty around it all. Nobody can tell her what her future holds, just that there's a very high likelihood that 'success' will be fleeting and this won't be our last series of chemo. I may be misunderstanding what the author proposes, but if the threat of cancer was reduced to the physiological impacts of dormant tumors, I'm pretty sure we wo…

Always relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/931/ really helped visualize for me what going through cancer treatment is like. God speed.

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#13

Here are some ideas: Look at the functional call stack. Its a slice of the linear address space that’s actively being used and it is strikingly similar to the promoter regions of the genome. Like some pathogens, hackers randomly try to hit that sweet spot that will jump to the special program. Operating systems are like simple biological organisms that evolve in response to various influences (cybersecurity it seems…

Not sure how much ASLR would be relevant w.r.t. genomes and cancer...

Malicious hackers are on the one side very smart (the cancer genesis process is not smart at all), but on the other side they make poor use of evolutionary strategies, mainly because human hackers can't easily spawn "an army of clones of their mind" (cancer otoh is all about evolutionary strategy).

Since the information about "what mutating a codon in a gene does" is not really available to "the attacker", it's as if the whole "address space" is already randomized by default...

The "cancer problems" sound like it's more like being attacked by a really really really dumb hacker, who has access to an utterly insane amount (relatively speaking) of computing power!

(...kind of hard to defend against such an attacker unless you invent modern crypto stuff like hash-signatures, blockchains etc. And our "DNA computer" is not at all designed for these types of math, recoding it to do this would probably be harder than developing mind upload capabilities or superhuman-AI :P Hence not likely to happen.)

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#14
post #3

A future where cancer is controlled but not cured is just as good and might be easier to achieve. I hope science gets there before I get cancer which is inevitable, unless I die from a heart attack.

So cancer will only kill poor Americans?

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#15

Professor at a med school here. Regardless of whether you think the specifics presented in this article (e.g., NSAIDS-esophageal cancer) are right, it’s great to see this kind of philosophical approach to biomedical research. We need more people like this professor. That she started with a plant and that made her think about humans was a great insight. She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell n…

> She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell non-autonomous processes in how multicellular organisms work.

This is an odd comment: This realisation is quite literally at the core of cancer research, and every researcher in the field recognises this. Heck, it’s implied if not mentioned outright in the seminal Hallmarks of Cancer paper [1] that every cancer researcher (and probably generally most human biologist) has read.

Don’t get me wrong: it’s a well-written article explaining the biology to a lay audience. But it doesn’t hold any striking new insights. All of this is not merely known but in fact fundamental knowledge.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hallmarks_of_Cancer

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#16
post #15

Professor at a med school here. Regardless of whether you think the specifics presented in this article (e.g., NSAIDS-esophageal cancer) are right, it’s great to see this kind of philosophical approach to biomedical research. We need more people like this professor. That she started with a plant and that made her think about humans was a great insight. She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell n…

> She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell non-autonomous processes in how multicellular organisms work. This is an odd comment: This realisation is quite literally at the core of cancer research, and every researcher in the field recognises this. Heck, it’s implied if not mentioned outright in the seminal Hallmarks of Cancer paper [1] that every cancer researcher (and probably generally most h…

> Don’t get me wrong: it’s a well-written article explaining the biology to a lay audience. But it doesn’t hold any striking new insights.

This "article" in the Harvard Gazette is basically a press release about an invited lecture that happened at Harvard. If it manages to clearly and correctly explain any science, then it's already going above and beyond its main purpose.

Edit:

* Here is Athena Aktipis' lab site: http://www.aktipislab.org

* Here is a 2015 NYT article about her work that goes into more detail than this press release: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/28/science/cellular-cheaters...

* This is the scientific article: http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1673/2014...

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#17
Hah! Wow that's a blast.

I used to work at a lab as an undergrad that worked on extremely similar topics, though the cancer link was more implied: http://research.fhcrc.org/shou/en.html

We had four yeast systems: Two cooperative yeast systems (exchanged metabolites the other needed to survive), and two cheater systems (needed those same metabolites to survive, but just took from the system and never gave back).

One experiment I assisted with was basically putting them all together at differing ratios and seeing what happened over time - the different systems released different fluorescent proteins, so we could measure their relative populations.

Common sense might dictate that the cheaters would rapidly outgrow the cooperators and eventually crash the whole system, but that actually didn't happen until very high ratios of cheaters.

The cooperative yeast systems somehow managed to extinguish the cheaters pretty consistently (all the experiments were repeated and done in triplicate). This happened even at fairly absurd ratios like 3:1 cheaters:cooperators. Unfortunately, I left before any of the follow-up work to determine why that was happening.

All that to say, it's fascinating how much cooperative systems really are favored in nature. Glad to see someone explicitly applying this idea to cancer.

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#19
post #15

Professor at a med school here. Regardless of whether you think the specifics presented in this article (e.g., NSAIDS-esophageal cancer) are right, it’s great to see this kind of philosophical approach to biomedical research. We need more people like this professor. That she started with a plant and that made her think about humans was a great insight. She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell n…

> She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell non-autonomous processes in how multicellular organisms work. This is an odd comment: This realisation is quite literally at the core of cancer research, and every researcher in the field recognises this. Heck, it’s implied if not mentioned outright in the seminal Hallmarks of Cancer paper [1] that every cancer researcher (and probably generally most h…

> But it doesn’t hold any striking new insights. All of this is not merely known but in fact fundamental knowledge.

A lot of "fundamental knowledge" in medicine is wrong. The genetic theory of cancer has always been a dead-end, because it reverses cause and effect. The cancer industry has encouraged "kill all the cancer cells" treatments because it's convenient for their business model. The cancer treatment situation is similar to how the use of bloodletting persisted for hundreds of years [0], in spite of the low rates of success.

[0] http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/theodoric-of-yo...

There's no need for new insights, the old insight needs to be fully developed. Your link has a subsection:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hallmarks_of_Cancer#Deregu...

Warburg's nobel prize was in 1931; we're finally realizing he was probably right all along.

(minor edit)

Re: Before cancer kills, it cheats

#20

Professor at a med school here. Regardless of whether you think the specifics presented in this article (e.g., NSAIDS-esophageal cancer) are right, it’s great to see this kind of philosophical approach to biomedical research. We need more people like this professor. That she started with a plant and that made her think about humans was a great insight. She rightly recognizes the key role of cell autonomous vs. cell n…

  That she is a woman... publicity from Harvard
I'd hate to break this to you, but that's definitely not surprising behavior from Harvard of all places. I mean, we're talking about the same Harvard, right?
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