Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#421

Post by bouke » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #137

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

> lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane

Aside from GPS’ accuracy as mentioned in other replies, also take into account the navigation’s map material. The individual lans are probably not individually tracked on the map, but a single track per road with meta data specifying the number of lanes amongst other featerus. So even if GPS would have provided very accurate position readings, the map source material might not even match that level of detail.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#422

Post by henrikeh » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:51 AM UTC

fernandotakai wrote: post #403

henrikeh wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drinking and driving is however banned. At what cost do we need the supposed improved performance of self-driving cars?

if you crash while under a substance, you not only get arrested but you can lose your license and get huge fines. if you crash while on autopilot, does the same happens?

Personally, I think the company selling the car with self-driving abilities should be responsible. In turn this requires a clear understanding of what the responsibility is: what is expected from a self-driving car; what situations should it handle; what kind of documentation is needed of their development process.

Like anything else which involves safety and environmental damage.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#423

Post by lisper » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:54 AM UTC

gowld wrote: post #419

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

If you are aware when you are wrong... you would not be wrong. If you are referring to assigning confidences/probabilities to decisions, this is standard in ML.

> If you are referring to assigning confidences/probabilities to decisions,

There's a little more to it than that but yeah, pretty much.

> this is standard in ML.

Yes, I know. But not, apparently, standard in embedded autonomous systems.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#424

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 5:57 AM UTC

sjwright wrote: post #410

guidedlight wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that auto-braking during autonomous driving doesn’t normally react to stationary objects like barriers. Otherwise it would brake for things like cardboard boxes, plastic bags, and other debris that often makes its way onto the road. But rather, autonomous driving AI puts a lot of trust into its lane guidance.

In what world would you not want your car to brake for a cardboard box? You don’t know what is inside. It could be empty, or could be full of nails. Or a cat. Regardless, it should be trivial have a different behavior for a moving object that enters the road versus a rigid object that has not been observed moving.

[deleted]

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#425

Post by animex » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 6:02 AM UTC

Could someone fill me in on collision detection? My 2016 BMW has Front Collision warning which can be set to min/med/max range. I've got it set to max range. It can detect a solid object that is coming up to collide with my car and warn me via sounds and HUD. Do Teslas not have some method of solid object collision that should supersede any driving directive? As per my previous comment, could a prankster paint a set of white lane markers that verve into a concrete wall or even off a cliff? That's freaking scary to me that these systems are so reliant on lane markings. At highway speed, a distracted driver, would have little time to be alerted, assess the situation and take the correct corrective action before a collision occurred.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#426

Post by sjwright » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 6:25 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #420

sjwright wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what world would you not want your car to brake for a cardboard box? You don’t know what is inside. It could be empty, or could be full of nails. Or a cat. Regardless, it should be trivial have a different behavior for a moving object that enters the road versus a rigid object that has not been observed moving.

Sometimes it's just a piece of paper or something similarly harmless that happens to be positioned on the road in such a way that it appears to be an obstacle.

If a system can't reliably differentiate between a flat object lying on the road, an object fluttering rapidly in the air, and a stationary object that is protruding from the road, it has no right to be in control of a car.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#427

Post by jijojv » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 6:31 AM UTC

matt-attack wrote: post #316

jacquesm wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

Pretty sure I heard an audible warning in the vid.

No, that's sound you hear when you override and take over the autopilot

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#428

Post by Piskvorrr » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 6:31 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #244

gormz wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there can be other bugs in my car, or other people that do something stupid, but I feel like I am more in control. It is unlikely I die from my engine blowing a gasket or my ECU completely dying. It might be a slight danger to those around me while I coast to the shoulder. But at least it's not going 60 mph into the shoulder...

You're severely underestimating danger of engineering mistakes in hardware. Faulty Takata airbags have killed at least 20 in the US and injured over 100 since 2013. Then there was the Ford-Firestone fiasco that killed hundreds and injured thousands. The Ford Pinto ended up being a death trap. I also recall there several lawsuits around faulty guardrails that have killed. That's just off the top of my head. The idea "…

I think the idea was "why add another layer of things that might kill me on top of existing ones?" In this regard, SDVs deliver the exact opposite of their marketing pitch.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#429

Post by therealidiot » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:07 AM UTC

thrillgore wrote: post #396

Asooka wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem that will very quickly fix itself, as morbid as it sounds...

It's one thing to remove the warning stickers from a gas-fire oven, its another when you're commanding several thousand pounds of unintentional killing machine. Keep your rooting to your phones.

All I want in a modern car is to have nothing smart in it that I'd _need_ (or, want) to root...

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#430

Post by Piskvorrr » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 7:07 AM UTC

freerobby wrote: post #296

rectang wrote: post #89

The ability to discern when the car needs to stop for a stationary object right in front of it needs to be an ironclad requirement for self-driving. It seems that sophisticated LIDAR is currently the best way to achieve this, but LIDAR is expensive. So companies like Uber and Tesla skimp on the LIDAR, and build self-driving cars that can more or less follow lanes but plow right into obstacles ? Whoa. The feasibility…

Lidar isn't reliable in conditions that are less than ideal (rain, fog, snow, etc). If you build a car that is dependent on real-time lidar observations, it is worthless much of the time in some climates and some of the time in all climates. Most companies are pursuing a Lidar approach because dev_speed(Lidar approach) > dev_speed(camera approach). Tesla is pursuing a camera approach because max(camera approach) > ma…

In such conditions, cameras are not unreliable, they're downright useless. Heck, even people have trouble driving during snowfall. I have a feeling that this is a massive set of scenarios that aren't even edge cases, yet SDVs are completely unprepared for them. ("No snow in coastal California - it doesn't exist at all!")