Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier • Hacker News Board

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#391

Post by leetbulb » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 1:13 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

> It's not possible to engineer an autonomous system that never fails, but it is possible to engineer one in such a way that it never fails to detect that it has failed.

Wouldn't the system doing the checking be considered an autonomous system...that could also fail?

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#392

Post by decebalus1 » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 2:04 AM UTC

One thing baffles me. Where is the insurance industry in this? I would expect them to drastically increase premiums in light of these developments.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#393

Post by blackoil » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 2:17 AM UTC

guidedlight wrote: post #384

ricardobeat wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been mentioned a lot of times lately (the auto-braking). When you think about it, you realize there are a million moments during normal driving where you have an obstacle ahead. Other cars, lane dividers like these that you might _have_ to pass by closely, or at least will have your car pointed at it for a few seconds, making tight curves on a walled road, high curbs, buildings that are on the edge of the ro…

My understanding is that auto-braking during autonomous driving doesn’t normally react to stationary objects like barriers. Otherwise it would brake for things like cardboard boxes, plastic bags, and other debris that often makes its way onto the road. But rather, autonomous driving AI puts a lot of trust into its lane guidance.

Will it run over accident victim, animal, or slow down and ask the human?

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#394

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #137

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

I totally agree with your analysis. What is more worrying is that even following the rest of the traffic would have solved the problem. If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong. Also: the lane markings are confusing but GPS and inertial readings should have clearly indicated that that is not a lane. If two systems give conflicting data some kind of alarm should…

> If you are the only car doing something then there is a good chance you are doing something wrong.

Following this principle would probably result in a lot of people angry that their autopilot had gotten them a speeding ticket.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#395

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:26 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #232

Tloewald wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not possible to engineer an autonomous system that never fails, but it is possible to engineer one in such a way that it never fails to detect that it has failed This seems to me to be a clearly incorrect (and self-contradictory) claim. It entirely depends on your definition of failure. Your analysis seems fine. The big problem is that the "autonomous" driver is using one signal (where are the lines on the edg…

> This seems to me to be a clearly incorrect (and self-contradictory) claim. I guess that means I was able to pull the wool over the eyes of all five members of my thesis committee because none of them thought so. > It entirely depends on your definition of failure. Well, yeah, of course. So? There is some subset of states of the world that you label "failure". The guarantee is not that the system never enters one of…

> The guarantee is not that the system never enters one of those states, the guarantee is that if the system enters one of those states it never (well, so extremely rarely that it's "never" for all practical purposes) fails to recognize that it has done so. Why do you find that so implausible?

Stated so, that is plausible. However, "it is possible to engineer a system that never fails to detect that it has failed" is not; I claim that any subset of states which is amenable to this level of detectability will exclude some other states that any normal person would also consider to be "failure".

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#396

Post by thrillgore » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:32 AM UTC

Asooka wrote: post #381

walrus01 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying to imagine the typical arch Linux enthusiasts modifying the lane detection software on their cars and shudder at the thought.

This is a problem that will very quickly fix itself, as morbid as it sounds...

It's one thing to remove the warning stickers from a gas-fire oven, its another when you're commanding several thousand pounds of unintentional killing machine.

Keep your rooting to your phones.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#397

Post by thrillgore » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:33 AM UTC

Calling this well intentioned series of mistakes "Autopilot" has got to be the dumbest fucking thing Tesla has done.

Actually, I stand corrected. Their stock gamble is about as dumb too.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#398

Post by dawnerd » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:41 AM UTC

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

More basic lane assist in other cars already solve this problem. 100% teslas fault. My car will disable lane assist the moment the lane gets too wide.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#399

Post by drderidder » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:47 AM UTC

I’ve always thought self driving cars are a monumentally dumb idea. There, I said it. I feel better now.

Re: Another Tesla on autopilot steers towards a barrier

#400

Post by drcross » Sat, Apr 07, 2018, 3:48 AM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #398

lisper wrote: post #122

Here is my armchair diagnosis: right before the car veers towards the barrier it drives through a stretch of road where the only visible lane marker is on the left. Then the right lane marker comes into view at about the point where the lane starts to widen out for the lane split. The lines that will become the right and left lane markers of the split left and right lanes respectively are right next to the van in fro…

More basic lane assist in other cars already solve this problem. 100% teslas fault. My car will disable lane assist the moment the lane gets too wide.

Sounds like an easy fix then. After that we move on to the next edge case and so on ad infinitum.