Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain • Hacker News Board

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#141

Post by proofofmoon » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #111

gshulegaard wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* 3% fee for processing credit cards * Platform play where the first stage is to amass users and then use that audience to sell to businesses ( https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/venmo-m... ) And I always assumed that the short delay for transferring money out of Venmo allowed them to eek a small margin against the time value of money somewhat similar to Robinhood ( https://www.investopedia.com/arti…

It is a lot easier to avoid paying a fee on Venmo than it is to use a cryptocurrency to send money to someone: just don't use a credit card.

What about in 2023?

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#142

Post by mr_spothawk » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

bwoodring wrote: post #62

kaolti wrote: post #6

One thing is sure, if you're hanging on to the past you'll always lose in the end. That's not to say blockchain is the be all and end all, but constantly hunting for arguments why something will never work , is not only terribly boring, but IMO the most counterproductive way to look at anything.

That's pithy, but there's no particular reason to believe it is true. You may find futurism amusing, but the future is not guaranteed to be better unless we make good decisions. The fact that something is futuristic does not make it inherently better, and believing that is does is just the mirror version of traditionalism. There is ample evidence that stable, predictable institutions are the main driver of improved q…

> The libertarian instinct to tear down these institutions...

... is predicated on the long-carried memory of institutions like these failing under the duress of locked-in, privileged, out-of-touch bad-decision makers in positions of power fucking it up for the rest of us.

> instead of putting in the hard work

in my view, "hard work" is the work of building fair, equal-access solutions in an open space, instead of building more walls to facilitate Government Guidance of systems that governments have historically mismanaged.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#143

Post by antiffan » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

I'm seeing more of these "anti-blockchain" criticisms circulating lately. This one makes valid points about problems with the present state of the ecosystem, but the author seems to ignore the fact that these problems are addressable.

His basic criticism of smart contracts is they can have bugs, and they can be costly since they will often involve moving money. Yes, this is a fact. Many potential solutions are out there, but how about these two ideas for starters:

- a crypto-currency where at least accounts for certain transactions can be de-anonymized, so a person can be identified and face consequences when they commit a crime like hacking.

- special transactions with settlement periods in which they can be canceled in the event of a hack, which might be identified by voter consensus.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#144

Post by jstarfish » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

RIMR wrote: post #92

>In fact, I would assert that there is no single person in existence who had a problem they wanted to solve, discovered that an available blockchain solution was the best way to solve it, and therefore became a blockchain enthusiast. I would say that every person running a darkweb drug market would disagree...

Blockchain isn't necessary for that. All you need are some shitty PHP pages behind a Tor hidden service and an escrow agent to facilitate transactions. The currency doesn't matter and it certainly doesn't have to be Bitcoin-- prepaid Visa cards work just as well, and are more anonymous than Bitcoin anyway.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#145

Post by clarkmoody » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

aalleavitch wrote: post #110

In many ways, blockchain tech is the stupidest thing that has ever existed. It is a colossal monument to the inefficiency of human behavior. You are literally throwing energy and immensely valuable computation time out of a window simply because people can't trust each other. It is a massive sink for the destructively self-interested behavior of mankind. The problems that blockchains are trying to solve are not inher…

> We need to fix human beings.

As a non-utopian, I understand that human beings cannot be "fixed." Thus, we must create systems that cannot be corrupted by humans.

Creating a money outside of state control may be the smartest thing that humanity ever does. We'll need maybe a century to see how it plays out.

That said, most of the blockchain projects out there are scams. If your project can run on a centralized database, then you don't need a blockchain.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#146

Post by dnautics » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

gtrubetskoy wrote: post #90

simias wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't call it crappy, it's actually quite brilliant. I agree with you, I always thought that the Bitcoin algorithm was very clever and "mind opening" in a way. It's one of these things I'd never have thought about but almost seems obvious in hindsight. What's even more interesting is that basically all of it is pre-existing technology: HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way t…

> HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way to create something that's more than the sum of their parts. No, not really. The way proof-of-work is used is nothing like in HashCash (more generally known as a time lock puzzle ), the solution to a decentralized clock is the one piece that is new. In the paper it is referred to as "Timestamp Server". Everything else is previously known tech…

I think also important is that there are exploits that break the existing system (e.g. 50% attack) but it's not in the financial interest of any given actor to exploit it. Part of the algorithm is economic.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#147

Post by gizmo686 » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

DINKDINK wrote: post #84

jeremyjh wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a few different personas, such as investment banker, retail store owner, and soccer mom. Then complete the following sentence: I need a decentralized time ordered log so that I can ...

Imagine a few different personas, such as investment banker, retail store owner, and soccer mom. Then complete the following sentence: I need a decentralized method of sending bits to other academic computers across the country so that I can ...

I can easily imagine a persona who could complete that sentence: scientists who wanted to share data across the country. The internet was built because it satisfied an actual need at the time, and grew organically.

It is even in the name. The "Internet" was not some monolithic project. It was a way of connecting the many different networks that had already been built.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#148

Post by klibertp » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:27 PM UTC

aalleavitch wrote: post #110

In many ways, blockchain tech is the stupidest thing that has ever existed. It is a colossal monument to the inefficiency of human behavior. You are literally throwing energy and immensely valuable computation time out of a window simply because people can't trust each other. It is a massive sink for the destructively self-interested behavior of mankind. The problems that blockchains are trying to solve are not inher…

> We need to fix human beings.

I admire your optimism. Meanwhile, we have quite a few millennia of trying and failing in this, so I'd rather try fixing the system instead.

> Meanwhile, imagine if every GPU used for mining right now was being used for training neural nets instead

With what, MNIST? For the billionth time?

ML and the current incarnation of AI don't need more CPUs, they need more data and better algorithms.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#149

Post by jstarfish » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:31 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #129

ruduhudi wrote: post #46

I think he is absolutely right about his dystopian view on smart contracts managing stuff but forgets about that one trusted party we're trying to avoid the most here, that costs us the most money and that we need the least in real life: Banks. That's what we neet the blockchain for.

I never understood that sentiment. What exactly is bad about banks? Banks are a trusted middle-man that controls, insures and manages my transactions, and in contrast to arcane technological blockchain solutions is actually a legally liable entity. I also don't understand how banks cost me more money than bitcoin. A bank transaction costs me very little to no money, a crypto-currency transaction is extremely expensiv…

For better or worse, banks are treated like the Ticketmaster of the financial industry.

The new-age solution to this seems to be sticking it to them by conducting all your business with scalpers.

Re: Systems built on trust, norms, and institutions function better than blockchain

#150

Post by cinquemb » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 6:33 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #31

> I would assert that there is no single person in existence who had a problem they wanted to solve, discovered that an available blockchain solution was the best way to solve it What about Wikileaks? They had all their payments shutdown and then they were able to start accepting payments. The "use case" for Bitcoin was stated up front. It is to allow censorship resistant transactions. And for Wikileaks in 2010, when…

I think skeptics of cryptocurrency get too focused on applying cases where their traditional banking systems serve them well, rather than how such systems do not serve marginal actors very well (or at all, for whatever reasons).

Cryptocurrencies don't need to appeal to mass market users who are already happy with what they have.

Appeals to legality (without stating jurisdictions or enforcibility), cries of rampant speculation (without acknowledging how much speculation already occurs in many kinds of markets and financial instruments), doesn't really matter to those who are now enabled to do something in a way that they couldn't before.

People using cryptocurrencies today to engage in various forms of trade valuable to each other, don't care what people on the sidelines think.