China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#41

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

> The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK.

That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there.

> We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true.

You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government representatives) is another.

Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third.

If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also fine by me.

As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist could ever be elected President of the USA.

> No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#42

Post by surfmike » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #12

andy_ppp wrote: post #3

What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there?

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

Poland and Ireland yes, but that's because of popular support. The church despite its past popularity as well as its resources has little influence on politics in Spain, Italy, Germany.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#43

Post by DeusExMachina » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #18

cjmcqueen wrote: post #5

This is bad. I get that religion has taboos, but religion also has an influence on morals. Yes, there are ways to be a good moral person without the Bible, but are we really giving people agency and the ability to choose if they are sensored? Human rights are human rights and as a human I should have the right to obtain a Bible if I so chose and live the consequences there of.

I think you mean "there are ways to be a good moral person even with the Bible," ? remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs. if not directly by simply suggesting it is the only truth.

Apart from the fact that your statement is simply not true, every value "discriminates" towards opposite values.

In every hierarchy, when you define something as better, you automatically define something else as worse. That's how you make any decision in your life. The alternative is inaction.

It has nothing to do with religion. It's an axiom of every value system.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#44

Post by burfog » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law.

That's not zero power.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#45

Post by madengr » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#46

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

galieos_ghost wrote: post #23

For an authoritarian government to work long term they have to be the highest power. This is why the Soviets worked so hard to destroy the church as well as the concept of family, people who value god or family above the government are a threat. In effect the government has to become god.

> For an authoritarian government to work long term they have to be the highest power. This is why the Soviets worked so hard to destroy the church as well as the concept of family, people who value god or family above the government are a threat.

The Soviets did that largely because that's part of Marxist doctrine that Lenin didn't explicitly abandon, not because it is objectively useful for authoritarian regimes’ longevity (as evidenced by the fact that authoritarian regimes where the state was unified or allied with religious authority and promoted the value of family have done quite well, and were long the norm.)

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#47

Post by matte_black » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

andy_ppp wrote: post #20

jacquesm wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in ge…

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government.

In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#48

Post by just_lurkin » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #18

cjmcqueen wrote: post #5

This is bad. I get that religion has taboos, but religion also has an influence on morals. Yes, there are ways to be a good moral person without the Bible, but are we really giving people agency and the ability to choose if they are sensored? Human rights are human rights and as a human I should have the right to obtain a Bible if I so chose and live the consequences there of.

I think you mean "there are ways to be a good moral person even with the Bible," ? remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs. if not directly by simply suggesting it is the only truth.

atheism is unique in this regard because their intolerance stems from a higher Scientific Truth, so it is ok /s

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#49

Post by DeusExMachina » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

sunstone wrote: post #25

Any Chinese interested in reading a Bible will just download it. Restricting access to the printed version will have very little impact and will likely increase demand, because banning books usually does that.

I would not underestimate the ability of the Chinese government to control what people can access online.

Re: China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls

#50

Post by AnimalMuppet » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 4:40 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #18

cjmcqueen wrote: post #5

This is bad. I get that religion has taboos, but religion also has an influence on morals. Yes, there are ways to be a good moral person without the Bible, but are we really giving people agency and the ability to choose if they are sensored? Human rights are human rights and as a human I should have the right to obtain a Bible if I so chose and live the consequences there of.

I think you mean "there are ways to be a good moral person even with the Bible," ? remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs. if not directly by simply suggesting it is the only truth.

Please don't put words in others' mouths. It's a disgustingly dishonest rhetorical trick, and it doesn't belong on HN.