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Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

nayuki.io

111–120 of 169 posts

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#111
A way to see folders & tags is to treat folders as tags but with the property that items may only be of one folder. The same happens in biology where scientists try to classify animals into one folder; a cat is put into the mammals folder (which has multiple hierarchies of subfolders). Instead, this classification system may be much more effective if it is classified as tags instead, where items may belong to multiple folders (or categories). This solves problems like the platypus, which belongs to multiple "biological folders".

It seems that humans have a hard time reasoning with the tag concept. I'm not sure where this comes from; is it decades of working with the folder/subfolder idiom in Windows, where most people are grown up with? Is it the resemblance of the physical world where we also put documents into one folder and one folder only? Or is it our intuition to simplify matters, and therefore seemingly make things simpler to uniquely have items belong to one container? I don't know; most likely, it's all the reasons above plus a few that I didn't mention.

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#112
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSX has Spotlight. It searches pretty much all the same stuff Google Desktop is listed as searching. If you want something open source instead then check out Quicksilver [ https://qsapp.com ]. Dunno about Windows or Your Favorite Unix. alternativeto.net may be of help: https://alternativeto.net/software/google-desktop/

Thanks. My subtle point was why use tags when you could use search? Search engines index the whole internet - millions of hierarchical file systems of all kinds. Why reinvent file systems? I don't use Mac. Windows 10 "Cortana" is no match for where Google Desktop was 10 years ago. I rarely use it unless I have to. Google searched the contents. Cortana just searches filenames and tries to route searches to the web. Li…

Google Desktop was indeed a great solution partially solving the tag problem in Windows. A good tagging system trumps search as you can make the results much better determinate. The ability to create your own namespace and then organize every file into that namespace ensures encapsulation. In a search result, you almost always have to filter out irrelevant items.

Good working search solves the problem pragmatically though :)

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#113
post #91

Hello everyone, thank you for all the comments. Seeing this on the HN front page caught me by surprise. In the past year I shared this article publicly (Reddit) and privately (with tech-savvy acquaintances) for comment, and the general sentiment I received was that these ideas were not ready to be read by a mass audience. The article is way too long and pulls in many disparate ideas; it explains both why traditional…

I think a big problem with metadata-aware “file systems” is that the metadata is lost once the file is exported out of the system. This is a problem with ID3 tags for instance. Another problem is where you make the compromise in the no-mans land between fully fledged data structure and file system. As soon as you start adding meaningful metadata to the file system, it quickly becomes apparent that you want the files…

> the metadata is lost once the file is exported out of the system. This is a problem with ID3 tags for instance.

Are you sure? ID3 tags are embedded in the file itself, and therefore remains in the file no matter what medium you store it on.

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#114
Just a braindump of what I don't like about tags instead of directories, no need to repay the advantages (I agree with some of them) :

- lack of identity. Somewhat watered down in presence of hardlinks/symlinks, but still much closer to identity than a tag cloud.

- does a file without a tag exist? It is conceptually very clear how removal of the path identity causes the actual bytes to go back into the free storage pool (wiggle a bit for hardlinks, but still pretty clear), it would be quite weird however to have files stick around based solely on secondary tags like "blue".

- lack of a consistent threshold for tagging: tags are binary, but relevance is not. If some files are tagged close to a full text index while others are tagged following a more minimalistic approach, the combined soup will not be very useful.

- too powerful for convenience: file creation in a hierarchical filesystem usually happens with a somewhat meaningful default. PWD, an app-wide default or an app-specific last used folder. The default sets some of the information you might put into tags, and this information is easily corrected if it was wrong, with a single operation that might be as easy as dragging to a different folder. "Is the default folder the right one for this file?" is easily discerned and corrected, a default tag cloud however would require a full mental scan to check for applicability to the new file. Every attempt of making those defaults more clever would just force even more scrutiny onto the user.

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#116
I believe many developers and designers have been annoyed by hierarchies in filesystems.

But I wanted to comment on this: > there is a mismatch between the narrowness of hierarchies and the rich structure of human knowledge

Absolutely true, this is exactly what I think annoys us most than anything, it shows us how limited hierarchies are. But at the same time, I think it's very relevant to keep in mind that our knowledge and the mental relationships we can find between ideas are very hard to make explicit and complete, like you would ideally want in a tag-based filesystem. I feel serious tagging, if manually defined, it's quite expensive if we want it to be really useful (surely, we can also consider complementary automatic tagging, like AI). Hierarchies instead, might not be very expressive, but they are very simple to use in "most" cases. So I would say we're still far from getting the best of both worlds. The problem to "solve" is information organization/structuring, and not even humans handle that ideally (we are more like, faulty, search engines with random inputs, prone to forget XD).

About the other ideas, I think they are all interesting, agree a lot with hashes usage and no-filenames, not so convinced about metadata, but haven't really thought enough about it. I don't think we can talk about the ideas fitting cohesively or not yet (but hey, I don't even think links in HFS are cohesive from any perspective), we would have to see more formal proposals for implementation and interface. This said, I hope we see more work along these lines in the future, it's a very worthy field to explore! Maybe start small, testing some of the ideas, we get a lot of design insight when we are working on the implementation.

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#117
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSX has Spotlight. It searches pretty much all the same stuff Google Desktop is listed as searching. If you want something open source instead then check out Quicksilver [ https://qsapp.com ]. Dunno about Windows or Your Favorite Unix. alternativeto.net may be of help: https://alternativeto.net/software/google-desktop/

Thanks. My subtle point was why use tags when you could use search? Search engines index the whole internet - millions of hierarchical file systems of all kinds. Why reinvent file systems? I don't use Mac. Windows 10 "Cortana" is no match for where Google Desktop was 10 years ago. I rarely use it unless I have to. Google searched the contents. Cortana just searches filenames and tries to route searches to the web. Li…

I agree, Cortana is terrible at searching. I use Everything Search [1] coupled with Wox Launcher [2], it's great and just oh so fast!

[1] https://www.voidtools.com/ [2] https://github.com/Wox-launcher/Wox

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#119
post #69
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

just curious, why the down vote? i wish I can see who down voted, is there a way to check?

What would you do with the names?

make an enemies of ausjke list probably

Re: Designing better file organization around tags, not hierarchies (2017)

#120

Google Drive used to be based around tags, not hierarchies. It was wonderful. Then as it matured and catered to more and more 'normal' people it introduced the concept of folders. The folders were initially tags 'really' - the same file could exist in multiple folders at the same time. But they made that harder and harder, and now I think it's hierarchical folders through and through. I miss the old days.

> as it matured and catered to more and more 'normal' people it introduced the concept of folders I think it has more to do with capacity growth. Relying in tag+search would be insane if most queries returned hundreds of files,

Yeah. Imagine a Google search that returned more than 100 results. Madness!
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