Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines • Hacker News Board

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#451

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:07 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #377

chvid wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to digress into why 3D touch is bad design. But you are sort of pointing it out right there. Everything has to be learned. There is no natural metaphor or "affordance" that guides how it is supposed to be used. It changes from device to device, from application to application. I am pretty sure that Apple had plenty of design people (or just people with common sense) pointing out the flaws of the touch ba…

3D Touch is like keyboard shortcuts or Terminal on the Mac. You don't need them to use the platform productively, but power users may appreciate the efficiencies they enable. A lot of people think that, if a feature or function is not immediately obvious to a new user, Apple did a bad job with that design. But actually there is no way to build a powerful piece of technology and have it all be obvious. Trying to do th…

This is exactly the thinking behind it and I'm so glad to see someone that gets it. It's one of the reasons why Windows is so hard for people to use, even when they use it regularly for their jobs. So much of the core functionality isn't discoverable because it's hidden behind right-clicks and ribbon menus. 3D Touch and the Touch Bar are for users that are already comfortable with the core where they can use that technology for efficiencies and additions.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#452

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:11 AM UTC

cstejerean wrote: post #240

chvid wrote: post #192

I am really "worried" about two features coming out of Apple the past few years: The touch bar mentioned here and the "3D touch" feature of the iPhone 7+. These are "obviously" bad interaction designs yet they come out of a company having almost infinite resources when it comes to design. What is going on here? Is it the marketing department taking over? Is it "we have created this chip and now we have to use it some…

The fact that people that frequent HN complain about something does not make it an obviously bad idea. Most of the developer complaints about the touchbar are about losing the hardware function and escape keys (which depending on how you use your laptop can be a bad trade off). Outside of that audience (and for those that code most of the time using an external keyboard) it’s actually pretty great. I say this based b…

I agree and find it so weird to hear so many people complaining on here and I am a developer. I never liked the function keys and never cared for them specifically because you have to memorize the functions for each numbered key and then, once you do, you're tied to that specific piece of software. If you ever want to try something new, you're stuck memorizing a completely different set of key mappings. To me, the Touch Bar is incredibly useful and, if I really need to do some work where I absolutely need function keys, I can just plug in a regular keyboard.

No one I know complains about the Touch Bar except people on Reddit and HN and I know tons of people with the new laptops. I also don't understand the hate for the new keyboards but that's a whole other rabbit hole to go down.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#453

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:12 AM UTC

usaphp wrote: post #120

arthurofbabylon wrote: post #119

I’m a non-tech savvy person who happens to work in tech. I find the touch bar very useful. This is what I believe: the touchbar is for people like me... people who never learned to use the F keys, people who aren’t obsessive about shortcuts but appreciate them when discovered. In short, it’s for the 90% of software users that float between general public and pro users. It works.

> In short, it’s for the 90% of software users that float between general public and pro users. It works. Then they should have not called it a “MacBook pro” there is nothing “pro” about touch bar, it’s something useless that I have to pay extra for and I don’t need it at all.

I disagree completely. The Touch Bar is invaluable for me in Final Cut and the tools I use for development also use the Touch Bar. I like iTerms use of the Touch Bar. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for other "pros".

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#454

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:15 AM UTC

cocktailpeanuts wrote: post #187

ubernostrum wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Pro" in "MacBook Pro" has never meant "developers, exclusively developers, and nobody but developers". As far as I'm aware, Apple doesn't and hasn't ever explicitly targeted its higher-end models at developers. They just happen to have been good developer machines, and so developers confused that for "I am explicitly the target market of this".

Please enlighten me, what's "Pro" about the touch bar?

The ability to have functions available to any piece of software that make that software more convenient for professionals who use those functions every day. Scrubbing a video or timeline in Final Cut, for example, is not possible with Fn keys but makes my job infinitely easier for editing.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#455

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:19 AM UTC

KillerRAK wrote: post #369

KillerRAK wrote: post #368

I refuse to buy the new MBPs for corporate use. Just keep buying the older model. The new one is an unmitigated, overreaching, disaster. Oh and BTW, if Apple discontinues the older MBP, I will NEVER buy a MBP with a Touch Bar. Utterly ridiculous. I look forward to reading about what a stupid technology blunder this was years from now in a listicle of tech mistakes.

And don't get me started about removing the glowing apple logo on the back of the screen. No reason for it -- now the back of the MBP looks just as shitty and cheap as every other craptop on the market.

>No reason for it

Not true. The new MacBook screens are LED backlit. The shining Apple would show through the display if they kept it and it literally offers nothing of value except a visual and a battery drain.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#456

Post by dpkonofa » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

stillkicking wrote: post #188

SllX wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not related to the TouchBar, but I don’t understand why Apple won’t improve on the Spaces feature. Why does it force me to use one space for an app. I'm thinking I might be misunderstanding this part, but here's a few tips for you: * Open Mission Control however you invoke it, top right corner there's a + button for adding a new Desktop. You can drag any windows you like into the new desktop or even force an entire…

The fact that these features are so undiscoverable proves the point, I think. The split view management in particular is clunky as hell even when you do know how to use it, as you can't edit the view once it's been created... only tear it down. Whether it's hiding the other desktop thumbnails until you hover, or the fact that fullscreened apps always become the last space (instead of just the next one), there are loa…

>The fact that these features are so undiscoverable proves the point, I think.

Why? These aren't features that your average, every day pro users would ever need. You're complaining about discoverability for an advanced feature that maybe 10 or 20% of the user base will use.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#457

Post by dmitriid » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 5:35 AM UTC

turtlebits wrote: post #428

dmitriid wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'be yet to discover a single use case where it might be useful. And it's nightmare on laptops

Here's the top things I use force touch for - - Moving the cursor - Opening Incognito mode for Safari - Requesting Desktop version of a site. - Turning on/off tethering from the control center - Setting brightness on the flashlight

I use most of these without the force touch :)

Some of them are not even force touch, but a long press :)

And funnily enough the most useful feature for the control center, turning Wi-Fi and Bluetooth off, are not even available there.

So all in all force touch is next to useless (and it's nearly impossible to discover what it will do or not do in different situations)

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#458

Post by JDiculous » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 7:53 AM UTC

ankka wrote: post #345

JDiculous wrote: post #343

The touch bar is absolutely atrocious, and shows that Apple is either completely out of touch or doesn't give a crap about it's users. There is absolutely no reason to force those who want the latest hardware with a dedicated graphics card to have that touchbar keyboard. They could've offered the touchbar keyboard alongside standard keyboard models, giving users the option to choose what keyboard they want while also…

Even with the bad parts the Macbook pro is still the most capable all-rounder available - it's durable, the build quality is excellent, the hardware is (apart from memory) as good as you can get in any portable laptop... It's really sad that Lenovo for some reason refuses to make laptops that actually match the macbooks; they are either huge or lack a proper GPU. And others just aren't of comparable build quality in…

From the little that I've looked at the Microsoft Surface, I've been impressed. Almost looks and feels like a Macbook Pro.

Biggest advantage Macbooks have had until now in my opinion is the trackpad. Shouldn't be that tough for competitors to match.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#459

Post by flukus » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 8:03 AM UTC

dpkonofa wrote: post #450

flukus wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you seen non-technical people using their devices, particularly older people? Every button press they make is a force touch and if that doesn't do what's expected they'll press harder. It's hard enough getting them not to long press or double click and now the company known for making things easy to use is making things even more confusing for lay people.

The number of "non-technical" people is only shrinking every single day. Why would they continue to design hardware for everyone just to cater to a constantly shrinking minority demographic?

It's not shrinking and it's the majority demographic.

I'd say it's growing in fact, younger people growing up with the internals of their devices more hidden from them than ever, they will have less technical literacy than their older peers.

Re: Making the Touch Bar useful by abandoning Apple guidelines

#460

Post by hennsen » Fri, Apr 06, 2018, 9:27 AM UTC

amdavidson wrote: post #365

hennsen wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why people downvote posts who wonder why people downvote posts in which others state personal experiences...

"Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading." [0] 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Then there should be a recommendation too that people should write a comment what they don’t like instead of just voting to help people understand what they did wrong. Like this it feels like downvoting is simply abused to push down opinions some don’t like.