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Pharo MOOC

mooc.pharo.org

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Re: Pharo MOOC

#81

Post by analognoise »

lukego wrote: post #68

I chose Pharo for a project recently ( http://github.com/studio/studio/ ). I am enjoying using it in production. The Glamorous Toolkit framework (Inspector and Spotter) is saving me a huge amount of work. I see Pharo as two universes: the stable (now Pharo 6) and the development (now Pharo 7.) I work on the stable one and I don't concern myself at all with what is happening on the development one. The yearly release…

I couldn't even tell what the Glamorous Toolkit was or how to use it; what's the best resource for it? I remember checking out the website when it was released but couldn't make heads or tails of it.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#82

Post by martin-t »

philippeback wrote: post #73
ljw1001 wrote: post #58

I've used Pharo, and, way back, programmed professionally in Cincom (then ParkPlace), IBM VisualAge, and whatever the Windows version of Smalltalk was called was called (Visual Smalltalk?). Also tooled-around a bit in Squeak. All three of the professional environments were very good. When Pharo kicked off, it was supposed to have been people building a free Smalltalk you could use to build real world software, as opp…

It is like fitness. One just hates it when it aches all over the place and then quits. Or keeps on moving through the pain/grind and grow a lot in all kinds of ways. And saying that VA or VW give a better user experience when coding vs Pharo, I beg to differ.

Except the pain in pharo doesn't come from the difficulty of learning new things or self-improvement but from the buggy environment itself. Learning to save your work every 5 minutes because it might crash any time doesn't make you a better dev, it just lowers your standards.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#83

Post by martin-t »

philippeback wrote: post #72
btilly wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per https://www.peteruhnak.com/blog/2016/07/25/how-to-use-git-an... as of 2 years ago Pharo did not have an established convenient way to integrate with git. Per https://github.com/pharo-vcs/iceberg the current best solution for that is still an experimental tool, so you have to be careful . Being able to integrate with other version control systems is still off in the future. Integrating with general tools may be a…

Not it doesn't. Iceberg is breaking new ground compared o Kraken/SourceTree etc. Pharo took the risk of integrating git support in the tools. It takes a few iterations. So what? Either one is a user or one is inventing new stuff. When was it you wrote a full wrapper for libgit? And made it available to any app? Yes, any Pharo app now has the ability to use libgit features. Awesome and opening quite some doors.

Pharo devs are not inventing new stuff, they're reimplementing existing stuff, poorly, in their favorite language because said language is incapable of interfacing with the existing mature tools.

Whoever designed the GUI also probably never used even git, or they couldn't stand their own tool. From the top of my head: 1) it shows all commits in a linear list (with broken unicode) completely ignoring branches 2) deletions are green and additions red.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#84

Post by philippeback »

martin-t wrote: post #82
philippeback wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is like fitness. One just hates it when it aches all over the place and then quits. Or keeps on moving through the pain/grind and grow a lot in all kinds of ways. And saying that VA or VW give a better user experience when coding vs Pharo, I beg to differ.

Except the pain in pharo doesn't come from the difficulty of learning new things or self-improvement but from the buggy environment itself. Learning to save your work every 5 minutes because it might crash any time doesn't make you a better dev, it just lowers your standards.

Come on, you are just throwing mud around for some reason I do not even want to know about.

It is hard to lose code with Pharo. I have always recovered everything 99.999% of the time.

You are happy with VW, fine with me. I cannot stand it.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#85

Post by philippeback »

btilly wrote: post #78
philippeback wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tooling appears exotical because you are not using it day in day out. And I actually find things like Spotter, Code Rewriter, GTInspector and Calypso pretty neat. IntelliJ is not simpler and is closed source. It is neat, true. We even use its icons in Pharo.

Tooling appears exotical because you are not using it day in day out. And that's the problem. The tools are different. They require learning. And once learned, they are only useful for dealing with one language. And that is a language that nobody around me uses. The result is a barrier to entry. A barrier to entry of a type that I'm not bothering with again unless I have a good reason to. Furthermore the small size o…

I am also using Tmux and Vi an awful lot.

And working on a fuse thing that exposes my running image as a filesystem so that I can such tools as well.

But saying that the tools are different and you cannot be bothered to use them? Look, Visual Studio is a monster beast, with tons and tons of features, including Azure ones. It takes a serious while to master.

And vim also takes a serious while to use well. Especially when we use a couple of plugins.

An engineer knows the tools. Then a specialist masters them. The master makes them. Or changes them.

Pharo allows one to do that. Without strings attached.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#86

Post by philippeback »

btilly wrote: post #79
philippeback wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not it doesn't. Iceberg is breaking new ground compared o Kraken/SourceTree etc. Pharo took the risk of integrating git support in the tools. It takes a few iterations. So what? Either one is a user or one is inventing new stuff. When was it you wrote a full wrapper for libgit? And made it available to any app? Yes, any Pharo app now has the ability to use libgit features. Awesome and opening quite some doors.

Congratulations. You came up with a reason to do a whole bunch of work that you found fun. Work of a kind that is entirely unneeded in other languages. Do you want a cookie? All developers are users of someone else's software and knowledge. I'm OK with that, and happy to not reinvent perfectly good wheels. You go ahead and enjoy wrapping libgit. My preference is to understand how to use data to help businesses. For e…

I am busy with serious size Hadoop clusters as well, using a gazillion of technologies (including some Pharo on YARN mind you).

Nobody forces one to use Pharo and I actually find it indeed useful to have an FFI binding to libgit.

Pharo has had git support for years with git filetree. There is no urgent need for a built in tool. Iceberg is an integrated tool which is not even yet released for the version of Pharo it is intended for (7).

The project is useful to test drive UFFI significantly. As such it is a really good test bed for all kinds 7of data structures and callbacks etc. Coupled with the 64 bit VM + image it is even more so.

I am in the Pharo ecosystem as a long play. Expedient solutions are plentiful. But they all lack this QWAN in Pharo that makes it enjoyable to me.

I am interested in understanding how things do work. Pharo allows me to do it in a way that suits me.

Given the count of "me" above, it is clear that I follow my own path and I couldn't care less about popularity.

Truth be told, I find it somewhat useful to have a harder to approach community. It keeps the signal to npise ratio at an acceptable level.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#87

Post by philippeback »

btilly wrote: post #79
philippeback wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not it doesn't. Iceberg is breaking new ground compared o Kraken/SourceTree etc. Pharo took the risk of integrating git support in the tools. It takes a few iterations. So what? Either one is a user or one is inventing new stuff. When was it you wrote a full wrapper for libgit? And made it available to any app? Yes, any Pharo app now has the ability to use libgit features. Awesome and opening quite some doors.

Congratulations. You came up with a reason to do a whole bunch of work that you found fun. Work of a kind that is entirely unneeded in other languages. Do you want a cookie? All developers are users of someone else's software and knowledge. I'm OK with that, and happy to not reinvent perfectly good wheels. You go ahead and enjoy wrapping libgit. My preference is to understand how to use data to help businesses. For e…

There is room for all kinds indeed.

Yes, I'd like a cookie. But not for libgit, but libstrophe. It was easier (and clean!) to bind with Pharo than with a lot of other technologies. The ability to pin objects is also very usable.

Re: Pharo MOOC

#89

Post by philippeback »

analognoise wrote: post #81
lukego wrote: post #68

I chose Pharo for a project recently ( http://github.com/studio/studio/ ). I am enjoying using it in production. The Glamorous Toolkit framework (Inspector and Spotter) is saving me a huge amount of work. I see Pharo as two universes: the stable (now Pharo 6) and the development (now Pharo 7.) I work on the stable one and I don't concern myself at all with what is happening on the development one. The yearly release…

I couldn't even tell what the Glamorous Toolkit was or how to use it; what's the best resource for it? I remember checking out the website when it was released but couldn't make heads or tails of it.

You haven't been looking much then. http://gtoolkit.org

Re: Pharo MOOC

#90

Post by philippeback »

FractalLP wrote: post #64
martin-t wrote: post #30

I had the "pleasure" of attending an OOP course at uni taught by Stéphane Ducasse. I didn't learn much OOP but i learned that pharo is an utter piece of garbage. The IDE randomly crashes, corrupts images (all your work is in the persistent image) and randomly ignores clicks making it insanely frustrating to use. Git integration is "WIP" which means it sometimes silently deletes files or you just don't get it to work…

Thanks for putting this out there. I found some weird things as well when using it, but just figured it was me. I was hoping your notes were from 2014, but it looks like you just went through all this. Another problem with Pharo is the confusion with Bloc, Morphic, and Spec. With C# you have WinForms and that is pretty simple and Java has Swing. With Pharo, I can't seem to find a decent way to build a GUI. Is Spec su…

In C# you have Winforms, WPF versions x,y, z.... and now UWA stuff.

And with Xamarin, a slew of other ways.

Not that less confusing.

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