MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics • Hacker News Board

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#11

Post by smt88 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #3

znpy wrote: post #2

Living ethically is very expensive, as you often have to turn down generous but unethical offers. I am not surprised about MIT's behaviour by the way. As long as top-level education stays private and has to hunt for funding, things like this will always happen.

Does MIT really need to "hunt for funding"? My impression is that their endowment is enormous.

Endowments are complicated. The money often has restrictions on how it can be used, and of course the goal is for the endowment's principal to grow.

A large endowment doesn't guarantee that an institution is wealthy enough to refuse money.

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#12

Post by ninjin » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #4

A lot of righteous, eloquent fury here. I had nearly forgotten about the foxconn suicides, and now that I think about it I don't remember anything really happening except nets being put up. Louis CK (RIP our opinion of him, but still) put it pretty well once, something along the lines of "slavery built everything we love. We just throw human death and suffering at a thing until it's done. There's no end to what you c…

I never watched Louis CK, but I managed to dig up a reference for that quote [1]. Regarding Foxconn, @evanpw is right though in that the suicide rates were not significantly different from those in the rest of the country. There is no denying though that a lot of human and non-human suffering has gone – and goes for that matter – into the very things we treasure and admire; one can wonder if this will always be the case?

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O5h4enjrHw&t=2m59s

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#13

Post by omegaworks » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #3

znpy wrote: post #2

Living ethically is very expensive, as you often have to turn down generous but unethical offers. I am not surprised about MIT's behaviour by the way. As long as top-level education stays private and has to hunt for funding, things like this will always happen.

Does MIT really need to "hunt for funding"? My impression is that their endowment is enormous.

Like any for-profit entity, growth is one of its primary objectives. Stagnation is death.

It's certainly not helped that our government has taken aim directly at universities with sizable endowments[1]. The recent tax bill hits hard and has directly impacted MIT's ability to provide financial aid and pursue humanitarian research[2].

1. https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/01/16/tax-college-...

2. http://news.mit.edu/2017/letter-regarding-new-federal-tax-bi...

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#14

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

evanpw wrote: post #9

komali2 wrote: post #4

A lot of righteous, eloquent fury here. I had nearly forgotten about the foxconn suicides, and now that I think about it I don't remember anything really happening except nets being put up. Louis CK (RIP our opinion of him, but still) put it pretty well once, something along the lines of "slavery built everything we love. We just throw human death and suffering at a thing until it's done. There's no end to what you c…

Apparently ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides ), the suicide rate at Foxconn during that period was lower than the overall Chinese or US suicide rate.

[deleted]

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#15

Post by mrgordon » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #3

znpy wrote: post #2

Living ethically is very expensive, as you often have to turn down generous but unethical offers. I am not surprised about MIT's behaviour by the way. As long as top-level education stays private and has to hunt for funding, things like this will always happen.

Does MIT really need to "hunt for funding"? My impression is that their endowment is enormous.

Yes the source of much of the enormous endowment is Department of Defense, Department of Energy, and private donations (see the new Koch building, for example). The major energy companies (e.g. Shell) are also big donors to the climate change research group which has no doubt tempered their publicly expressed views.

So overall much of the funding is from less than ideal sources from an ethical point of view. It does create some issues from time to time.

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#16

Post by DamnYuppie » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #6

They should have stuck to attacking MBS, and brought up the fact that the 9/11 hijackers had direct support from Saudi diplomatic personnel. Attacking Apple for providing well above market pay for jobs that rescue chinese laborers from brutal and dangerous rural farm jobs just makes the writer sound entitled.

Can you please provide more context from the "brutal and dangerous rural farm jobs"? I am aware agriculture production in China is very different then here but even at its most labor intensive times it is not something that I would have considered to be "dangerous".

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#17

Post by ben509 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

temporama wrote: post #7

Mbs is not trying to make himself look like a positive transformative figure, he actually is one. The war in Yemen is equally the fault of Saudi Arabia and Iran but I don't hear anyone calling for sanctions on Iran. I am astounded that such ignorance could come from one of the worlds pillars of higher education. Consolidation of power such as that recently performed by mbs is routine and it was done in a very humane…

> When you consider that not properly consolidating power could lead to the compromising of the state > I am astounded that such ignorance could come from one of the worlds pillars of higher education."

You bring up some interesting points. I'm not remotely familiar with MBS, so this is just pointing out why in general you shouldn't expect a reformer to look like a reformer.

Lincoln by his own words absolutely looked like a bastard who didn't give a damn about slavery, and nevertheless set in motion events to free slaves. And, of course, to get enough popular support, he couldn't be too outwardly anti-slavery. That's inherent in statecraft: to get things to change, you expect to have to play the people who don't want them to change.

And if a reformer is fooling the people whose agenda is to stymie reform, you should expect a less interested third-party to be fooled. So if MBS was a reformer, it shouldn't be surprised that educated people might study him quite carefully and not remotely catch on that he's enacting reforms.

Likewise, it's just as possible he is a total bastard, the MIT students are right, and you're getting suckered.

Again, I haven't read up on MBS at all, this is just a practical reality to keep in mind when you're evaluating a reform-oriented politician or official.

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#18

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

omegaworks wrote: post #13

germinalphrase wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does MIT really need to "hunt for funding"? My impression is that their endowment is enormous.

Like any for-profit entity, growth is one of its primary objectives. Stagnation is death. It's certainly not helped that our government has taken aim directly at universities with sizable endowments[1]. The recent tax bill hits hard and has directly impacted MIT's ability to provide financial aid and pursue humanitarian research[2]. 1. https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2018/01/16/tax-college-... 2. http://news.mit…

A 1.4% tax on endowment income is consider being hard hit?

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#19

Post by burkaman » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

temporama wrote: post #7

Mbs is not trying to make himself look like a positive transformative figure, he actually is one. The war in Yemen is equally the fault of Saudi Arabia and Iran but I don't hear anyone calling for sanctions on Iran. I am astounded that such ignorance could come from one of the worlds pillars of higher education. Consolidation of power such as that recently performed by mbs is routine and it was done in a very humane…

> I don't hear anyone calling for sanctions on Iran

The US president? Israel? The new US national security adviser to the president? An enormous number of existing sanctions currently imposed by the US, EU, and UN?

Re: MIT's student newspaper criticizes MIT's convenience-based ethics

#20

Post by jzl » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 9:52 PM UTC

You don't even have to look as far as Saudi Arabia to raise similar questions. The Koch brothers are MIT graduates and huge donors. For a similar discussion of the ethics of MIT's acceptance of their money, see: https://www.quora.com/How-could-MIT-have-received-a-grant-fo...