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Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

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Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#131

Post by googlemike »

dang wrote: post #120
Parsifal18 wrote: post #81

This article reads like a glorification of the kind of ethnocentrism and tribalism that most here categorically condemn when it's engaged in by white people. Seeing as HN is supposed to be rational, pro-science, and skeptical, it's pretty strange to see an article on the front page so sympathetic to a religion--especially one that has infant genital mutilation as its core sacrament: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar…

Religious flamewar and racial flamewar are not allowed on Hacker News. We've banned this account.

Thank you!

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#132

Post by DanAndersen »

Pigo wrote: post #126
DanAndersen wrote: post #16

Anyone interested in this topic should definitely check out Darryl Cooper's "MartyrMade" podcast, which had a Dan-Carlin-style series of episodes about early modern Zionism and the origins of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict: http://www.martyrmade.com/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem... It does a great job of being even-handed and emotionally connecting the listener with the motivations of the people in history. Th…

On a side note ...and I know I'll be sacrificing some points for this comment... I can't seem to get what everyone likes about Dan Carlin. I really enjoy history, and appreciate color commentary, but I've found the couple that I've heard didn't hold my interest very long. I started the Khans and one on the Romans, after hearing the non-stop praise on JRE. I really wanted to like it, which is why I was shocked that it…

The World War 1 episodes might be slightly more enjoyable, because I think those deal a bit more with "history" in the sense of events and blow-by-blow of what happened. But it may be that Dan Carlin's stuff just isn't your style. Carlin's approach tends to be more of a discussion where he uses the backdrop of a historical event to ponder some aspect of the human condition. There is also a lot of repetition and redundancy and rambling when he talks, so some of the appeal is people who just plain like the sound of Carlin's voice and enjoy hearing someone talk about something interesting. I tend to divide up my podcasts into mental categories of "those I listen to at normal speed" and "those I listen to at 1.5x or 2x speed." Carlin's stuff fits into the first category for me.

Are there other history podcasts you've enjoyed? I think something like The History of Rome might be more of your style.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#133

Post by bjourne »

gargarplex wrote: post #124
bjourne wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this infatuation with ones genetic material. Given that I am blond and blue-eyed and live in Scandinavia, I'm probably just as much Vikingish as you are Jewish. Should I be proud of being a Viking? If your objection is that the Vikings were horrible people that just pillaged stuff. Then I agree, but the ancient Israelites weren't that kind to women and slaves either. If your objection is that the c…

It's not just genetic material. It's a combination of genetic material and culture. I don't know if you're Swedish or what, but I can tell you most Swedes I've met love their Swedish culture. Their King (though he's purely symbolic). The lagom of it all. And you know well of the political movement in Sweden to restrict the definition of "Swedish" to those who have obvious Swedish ancestry. https://www.youtube.com/wat…

But when you write "it's a combination of ..." do you mean we must compare? Must I prove that a large enough percentage of Viking culture did survive to be able to call myself Vikingish? That seem arbitrary.

Yes, I know of the political movements you talk about. Yes, I think you can be grateful of being born in one of the best places on earth. Yes, you can enjoy have physical appearance that most women of the world consider very attractive. But being proud of it? Nah...

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#134

Post by User23 »

bjourne wrote: post #113
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.

I don't understand this infatuation with ones genetic material. Given that I am blond and blue-eyed and live in Scandinavia, I'm probably just as much Vikingish as you are Jewish. Should I be proud of being a Viking? If your objection is that the Vikings were horrible people that just pillaged stuff. Then I agree, but the ancient Israelites weren't that kind to women and slaves either. If your objection is that the c…

It's an adaptive behavior that increases evolutionary fitness.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#135

Post by User23 »

spike021 wrote: post #83
pavelrub wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing Judaism - the religion, with the Jewish people - an ethnorelegious group. Many modern Jews are atheists - they certainly don't believe in Judaism, yet nobody would doubt that they are Jewish, nor would they deny this themselves. Similarly - a Jew can become a christian or a muslim yet ethnically still remain a Jew. The same cannot be said about christians or muslims.

>a Jew can become a christian or a muslim yet ethnically still remain a Jew I completely agree with your comment, and not only that but also find your view on the quote interesting as well. A lot of Jews would say that any Jew who becomes a Christian is no longer Jewish (by ethnicity or religion) even if said "Jewish Christian" still abides by and observes many Jewish customs and holidays.

A lot of Jews are still mad that the greatest man among them started the most successful and enduring sect of Judaism ever, and then had the gall to welcome foreigners.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#136

Post by reggieband »

bradfordarner wrote: post #67
throwawayjewish wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impres…

Just to throw in an additional perspective of what I find fascinating about this topic. I don't think that all long lasting things are particularly interesting. Rocks have been around longer than the Jewish people but we don't celebrate that as extraordinary. It is considered perfectly natural. It is noteworthy when something is unnaturally long lasting; when other peoples/belief system were put under similar pressur…

Isn't that literally Suvivor bias?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#137

Post by wsy »

throwawayjewish wrote: post #49
MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.

I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impres…

As you I don't see why someone should be proud about anything inherited. It can be a gift (or a curse), but it is certainly not an achievement.

That being said, for me the Jewish tradition is immensely powerful, even though I'm not a believer in God. Sitting together with your family at the Seder table and talking about what it means to be free vs. to be slave is an amazing experience. It would be very hard to re-create that experience without the frame given by our Exodus narratives and the surrounding traditions.

I'm sure other cultures have their own powerful traditions for keeping values alive and transporting them across generations. But as you are already very familiar with Jewish traditions (probably much more than me), why not make use of this treasure?

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#138

Post by jklinger410 »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #128
your-nanny wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would dispute the notion of common ancestry is synonymous with common transfer of genes. The former is about descent, within a system of kinship, that may or may not recognize within it's domain an actual realized transfer of genes on the one hand, and may include in it's domain instances when no such transfer might have occurred (adoption/cuckoldry/politically motivated claims of kinship/etc.etc.).

come on, you are engaging in pointless sophistry. Common ancestry doesn't mean that it involves 100% guaranteed common transfer of genes every time - it just means that common transfer of genes was quite likely to take place at least relatively often. In the case of Ashkenazi Jews, we know it did.

I'm just trying to point out that you don't have to share genes with an ethnic group to belong to it.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#139

Post by davemel37 »

wsy wrote: post #137
throwawayjewish wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impres…

As you I don't see why someone should be proud about anything inherited. It can be a gift (or a curse), but it is certainly not an achievement. That being said, for me the Jewish tradition is immensely powerful, even though I'm not a believer in God. Sitting together with your family at the Seder table and talking about what it means to be free vs. to be slave is an amazing experience. It would be very hard to re-cre…

Well said. One point however...

>As you I don't see why someone should be proud about anything inherited. It can be a gift (or a curse), but it is certainly not an achievement.

One way to look at this is if you believe achievements are worthy of pride, or that pride is an 'incentive' to achieve, than recognizing how significant everything you do can be is a great way to inspire maximizing achievement... One way to do this may be to recognize that your achievements can have a positive impact on future generations, even in simply creating positive and breaking negative parenting cycles in your family, or how smiling at someone can have a ripple impact elevating numerous peoples days and possibly lives... its possible that training us to be proud of something that is as insignificant as being a product of our parents will nurture a sensitivity to take our ability to impact others with the seriousness and responsibility it demands. Just a thought.

Re: Why Jewish History Is So Hard to Write

#140

Post by jacquesm »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13
oyvey wrote: post #5

Wow amazing how the bound of religion and ethinicy can led people to survive thousands of years and still maintain an identity.

Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.

Why be proud of a thing that happened to you by chance?

I was born into a particular family but that's nothing to be proud of, it wasn't exactly my achievement.

I'm Dutch by birth, but I'm not proud to be Dutch.

I'm a European by birth, but it doesn't make me proud either.

What I an be proud about is those things that I've achieved that were not 'normal' for a person of my birth station and privilege level. (And that's not a whole lot, given the fact that I was born in one of the wealthiest countries in the world as a 'white male' which means I had just about all the lottery cards picked just so.)

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