Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#261

Post by EnderMB » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:30 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #225

EnderMB wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that has been caught speeding, it's also worth mentioning that one of the big reasons why the UK has improved its road safety statistics is a reasonably new initiative where you get an option on your first offence to either take the points on your license or to attend a safety workshop. IIRC, the workshop was about three hours, but it was surprisingly useful. The instructors treated you like adults and not…

> However, on the drink driving front, given the news with Ant from Ant and Dec I think it's safe to assume that not everyone gets a prison sentence for drink driving. Has he been sentenced?

Nope, I think his court case has been moved back. The court wouldn't say why, but it's believed to be because they want him to ensure he gets the most out of his time back in rehab.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#262

Post by majewsky » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:32 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #205

rypskar wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Convenience and maximisation of traffic are I think the convenience will mean more traffic since many who now use public transport will use their self driving car instead. So in total autopilots could be worse for the environment and require even more roads

I agree with the traffic increasing, though as we are moving toward electric cars, not sure this is an environment problem. At least not an environment problem in big cities.

Electric cars still impose a huge environmental cost since they need to be manufactured in the first place. And the batteries need rare earths which are, well, rare.

While there is ongoing research into novel types of batteries made from more common materials, I wouldn't be surprised if the next war is about lithium instead of oil.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#263

Post by sschueller » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #245

sschueller wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can anyone take a company serios that sells features such as "Bio-Weapon Defense Mode". It almost sounds like snake oil and not far from something like the ADE 651. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADE_651

"Not only did the vehicle system completely scrub the cabin air, but in the ensuing minutes, it began to vacuum the air outside the car as well, reducing PM2.5 levels by 40%. In other words, Bioweapon Defense Mode is not a marketing statement, it is real. You can literally survive a military grade bio attack by sitting in your car." https://www.tesla.com/blog/putting-tesla-hepa-filter-and-bio...

"extreme levels of pollution" is not the same as a bio-chemical weapon.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#264

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

nikofeyn wrote: post #33

schoen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brad Templeton has some very relevant discussion of this in https://www.templetons.com/brad/robocars/levels.html including > There is additional controversy, it should be noted, about the proposed level 2. In level 2, the system drives, but it is not trusted, and so a human must always be watching and may need to intervene on very short notice -- sub-second -- to correct things if it makes a mistake. [...] As such, w…

i don’t see why it’s controversial. just look at drivers now. many are already on human autopilot checking their phone, eating, etc. if you give any amount of automation but that which still requires checking in from the human, humans will almost universally check out and crashes will be prevalent. autonomous driving will simply not work without full, unsupervised driving. i don’t understand why this is even a discus…

Indeed. Since the SDV controversy started, I do catch myself at non-driving behind the wheel: "was I watching the traffic at all, or did I divert all my attention to the radio for several seconds? Was I too busy with the kids' fighting to watch the road just now?" And that's with me trying to actually drive the car safely, to be aware of its operating envelope, other traffic, hazards, navigation etc.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#265

Post by simion314 » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #241

simion314 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we do not push for safety then the manufacturers would invent some bad statistics and cheap out on sensors and engineering after they pass the bad statistics percentage. The traffic issue it won't be actually solved with this kind of self driving cars, you would need new infrastructure, like modern metros/trains. The dream of fast moving self driving cars, like a sword, I don't think is possible without a huge inf…

You will increase traffic without material change to infrastructures if you have no car parked in the street (particularly in Europe where streets are typically narrow) and you have better traffic flow management (coordinating self driving cars), variable speed limits, etc.

What is the minimum time you guess it would take to have a city with only self driven cars that could just drive by following lines and other specific signals?

I do not think this will happen in an existing city for at least 20 years.

I can imagine scenarios where a glitch or something else could cause tons of traffic issues in a city with only self driving cars.

I am not against self driving cars, I don't like the fact that this startups arrived and push alpha quality stuff on the public roads, it will create a bad image for the entire field.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#266

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:34 AM UTC

Piskvorrr wrote: post #248

codebolt wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And also the idea that an automatic driver is easier to improve over time (skewing the trade-off better and better) than human drivers. Which of course will snowball when reliance on automation keeps making drivers worse than better, and at some point you're past the point of no return. I really hope it does get to the point were all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate to a much higher ex…

"Hello, fellow robot car, I am also a robot car, not a wifi pineapple notatall nooosir, and all lanes ahead are blocked. But hey, there's a shortcut, just turn sharp to the right. Yes, your map says you're on a bridge, but don't worry, I have just driven through there, trust me." Nothing could possibly go wrong and the idea of evil actors in such a network is absurd - right? Your idea reminds me of the 1990s Internet…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#267

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:35 AM UTC

cardinalfang wrote: post #185

worldsayshi wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One solution would be to make the autopilot worse within the realm of safe driving. Make it so that it continuously makes safe errors that the driver has to correct. Like steering off into an empty lane. Slowing down. Etc. Defining safe errors might be a challenge though.

Or the car could regularly ask a question about e.g. the colour of the car behind you.

Or "Are we there yet?" ;)

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#268

Post by martin_bech » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:40 AM UTC

icc97 wrote: post #160

sho_hn wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not be surprised if Musk coldly responded that this is a known problem with no solution, but autopilot still lowers the death rate on average. In other words, for the proponents it's a trade-off. And also the idea that an automatic driver is easier to improve over time (skewing the trade-off better and better) than human drivers. Which of course will snowball when reliance on automation keeps making drivers w…

At the moment Tesla haven't shown that auto-pilot does lower the death rate. They've only released statistics about auto-pilot enabled cars rather than statistics for when auto-pilot was in control. Any statistics released by Tesla should be compared against similar statistics from say modern Audis with lane-assist and collision detection.

Thats because all autopilot enabled cars, have the safety part enabled by default. Automatic Emergency Brakeing. Side collision avoidance, Lane detection etc.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#269

Post by smoyer » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:40 AM UTC

teppix wrote: post #253

melling wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the autopilot was always supposed to be combined with the human. It’s not a self-driving car. It’s really an advanced cruise control.

The statistics also includes all the cases where drivers are not paying attention as they should, and it's still safer than the average car (at least according to Tesla).

Drivers not paying attention in non-autopilot vehicles is an increasing problem with the prevalence of smart phones. In places where it's illegal to text and drive I don't think you're going to get out of a ticket by telling the police officer "it's okay because Tesla was driving".

I do believe "it's still safer than the average car" because there's not a big tank of explosive - I'm most curious to hear what caused such a massive fire in this crash. But you're talking about the autopilot and it's statistically incorrect to say it's safer than the average car. It's merely safer than a driver alone - this should be no surprise as you'll find that cars with backup cameras and alarms don't hit have as many accidents while in reverse as cars without them.

Re: Tesla crash in September showed similarities to fatal Mountain View accident

#270

Post by kachurovskiy » Thu, Apr 05, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

antirez wrote: post #200

What is happening was clear to many since the start: Tesla incarnates the behavior of his founder, exaggerating the technology that is really available right now, and selling it as a product without the premise for it to be safe. A product that kinda drives your car but sometimes fails, and requires you to pay attention, is simply a crash that we are waiting to happen. And don't get trapped by the "data driven" analy…

I'm in central Europe, switched from a train to a car. Reduced commute time, increased comfort and reliability. Costs several times more though.