Live data from Hacker News

Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

841–850 of 1001 posts

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#841
post #599
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The graph you are linking to ends in 1998, when Bill Clinton was in power, the US was the sole superpower, the EU was increasing in size, China's GDP was a tenth of what it is now, and i think Boris Yeltsin was running Russia, and most people had not heard of Osama bin laden. I think it is safe to say the world is different now. Look at the backsliding in Turkey, Phillipines, Burma, Venezuela, Egypt. Look at the regi…

We can all look at the data. The graph I linked ends in 2003 (like indicated in the graph itself), and jpollock posted the value for 2016, which is 70, so even higher than 2003. In other words, you are telling incorrect things and when called out, instead of giving in to reality, you are doubling down telling even more incorrect things. Not good. And it's quite saddening that in this forum dedicated to rational disco…

Sorry for being out of the loop - it was night time in India, and i had gone to sleep.

You are right that the title says 2003 - i looked at the scale below which ended at 1998. I was not so much doubling down, but rather talking of a slightly different point that the ones you and jpollock were making. When I said democracies were in retreat, there are two or three different phenomena.

First - the western democracies seem to be internally weaker, and unable to arrive at consensus even for important national priorities. This may be because of the rise of social media echo chambers. In Europe there is a growth of right-wing parties in all countries, even Germany. As an Indian this worries me, because for all their warts, the liberal democracies of US and the European countries are the model of governance I would like to have succeed across the world.

Second - there seems to be no answer to the salami-slicing tactics of the autocratic regimes in Africa and Asia. You have to see the bullying of countries like Mauritius, Sri Lanka, Phillipines, even Vietnam and wonder. As the western democracies look to be in retreat, countries are surrendering their interests to the regional bullies. This will ultimately hurt all democracies in the long run.

Thirdly - there is the increasingly blatant and surprisingly successful interference in open societies from the closed ones. The US election is only the most advertised one. But similar interference has happened in Australia, in UK, in various part of Europe. There are at last signs of response to this - Australia has passed a law against foreign interference, and the Skripal episode has led to (some) concerted effort. But the response still seems much weaker than the provocation.

In summary, by "retreat of democracies" my focus was on their will and ability to stand up to autocratic forces, not a retreat of democracy itself (which i think is what jpollock and your responses were about). That may be why we were talking at cross purposes. I fervently wish i am wrong - and I hope i never try to avoid rational discourse.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#842
post #720
post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're muddying the water and completely missing the point: Facts are what they are, regardless of what people may say or feel about them. The laws of physics, such as Ohm's Law, can be discovered and are facts even were people to deny their validity. The same is true for all facts of nature, including the nature of humans and their rights.

Respectfully, I disagree on both claims. Fact in law is not the same as a fact in science. Scientific "law" is an artifice, more of something created by someone attempting to explain using a poor mapping of language to the way scientists do their work. Scientific theory makes testable and falsifiable predictions. Gravity is a theory, not a law. It makes testable and falsifiable predictions. Specifically, Newtonian gr…

Physics and its development is not the sole, nor the primary, reference for man's means and acquisition of knowledge. Ohm's Law is valid within certain limits, and these limits are also facts. (I misstated something earlier -- Ohm's Law itself is not a fact, it is conceptual framework, an identification of facts.) Just as our understanding of blood groups and their compatibility has improved over time -- the underlying facts did not change, the knowledge and theories changed to take into account the expanded knowledge of facts. Science is a systematic body of knowledge, that is: knowledge of nature -- nature being the facts.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#843

From the movie "Flash of Genius" about Robert Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper: "I can't think of a job or a career where the understanding of ethics is more important than engineering," Dr. Kearns continues. "Who designed the artificial aortic heart valve? An engineer did that. Who designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz? An engineer did that, too. One man was responsible for helping save ten…

As a roboticist at the beginning of my career working on drones, I decided then and there that I would never make "bombs", a metaphor I used to mean anything that could be weaponized. I realized a lot of the work I was doing was funded by DARPA, and I was very cognizant about my research being used in this way. And like Dr. Kearns suggests, it's not entirely black and white. Would my path planning algorithm be used t…

Almost any technology can be weaponized. It's not about the particular technology you work on, but who it's being built for and the intended application.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force, and all matters should be resolved in a civil court of law. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the defin…

The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force Note that like most other points made in discussions involving "rights," this is an opinion, presented as if it were an objective fact. Another opinion is that you have only the rights that you can defend. That one, at least, has some empirical proof behind it.

Why do you pay your taxes? Is it altruism on your part, or fear of retaliation if you don´t? What happens if you were more powerful than the IRS (or whatever force the IRS might send your way to coerce you into paying your debts)? How can a state impose a law on criminals if criminals are stronger than itself? See mexico for example, where drug cartels are arguably stronger than the state in certain parts they control. Or brasilian favelas. This part is not an opinion my friend. Also I don´t claim to have invented this concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#845

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm making almost $400,000 total compensation and I'm happily working on things that I love. I don't need a union to tax me and force me to pay dues to do absolutely nothing that will benefit me, besides pay themselves well. On top of that, having a union start representing itself as a political force will definitely upset me. I may be against the militarization of Google, but what if I weren't? What if I supported i…

You are exactly the kind of scum that would support militarisation if it handed you a cheque with the right amount. I wouldn't be sad (or organise with my union against it) if a drone vaporised you.

... guess dang went to sleep?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#846

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we refuse to develop the technology, our enemies will anyway. Imagine a world where Nazi Germany developed nuclear weapons.

Ah yes, the " I have to do evil things because if I didn't, someone else would " argument... Just think about what you wrote: "our enemies". Why do you (whichever country you are from) have enemies in the first place? What did your country do to make others hate it? A lot of people seem to focus on how to defend against "those who hate us" without spending a passing thought on the why of it. Solving "why" also solves…

I like your idealism. But there's often not a why. And if there is, it's not necessarily 'what they did' but rather 'what they have', like water or land or whatever.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#847

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a roboticist at the beginning of my career working on drones, I decided then and there that I would never make "bombs", a metaphor I used to mean anything that could be weaponized. I realized a lot of the work I was doing was funded by DARPA, and I was very cognizant about my research being used in this way. And like Dr. Kearns suggests, it's not entirely black and white. Would my path planning algorithm be used t…

Almost any technology can be weaponized. It's not about the particular technology you work on, but who it's being built for and the intended application.

please help me understand how a substance that turns sand into soil, developed to green the deserts, can be used as a weapon.

To me this argument that "anything can be used in evil ways" is a poor excuse used to distract from the issue.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#848
This is a tricky problem and there is no easy position to take. On one hand you don’t want anyone to have such lethal power. You could argue the atomic bomb is the warning we should learn from.

On the other hand, this needs to be evaluated in the context of “balance of power”. Can Alibaba really refuse helping Chinese military. If not the Chinese are going to gain the power regardless of whether US has it or not. Any advanced country could gain such power.

These other entities may not follow the same ethical guidelines. Are we then proposing the US military should be less powerful than its rivals?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#849
post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's totally different. He chose to kill the people and did it intentionally out of hate / pride for his country. This thread and the posted link are discussing whether something is immoral or not. He knew it would kill a ton of people and designed it to on purpose. That situation is totally black and white. Mass intentional killing is wrong, pretty much everyone agrees with that.

> Mass intentional killing is wrong, pretty much everyone agrees with that Nope. Bomber Command in WWII and the use of nuclear weapons in WWII are both examples where you will find nuanced, intelligent debate on both sides of the argument of whether "mass, intentional killing" being wrong or not. What you describe as "hate / pride for his country" ... but isn't that the reason most soldiers kill? That you even bother…

"intelligent debate on both sides of the argument of whether "mass, intentional killing" being wrong or not"

I'm sorry, but this sentence contains already the problem.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What did your country do to make others hate it? You have a very simplistic view of geopolitics. What did Poland do to Germany in 1939 to make Germany hate it? What did the Jews do to the Nazis to make them hate them so much? Wars get started for all kinds of reasons, some predictable, others not. It's a simple matter of survival to equip yourself as best you can to defend yourself.

> It's a simple matter of survival to equip yourself as best you can to defend yourself. And when was the last time the US actually defended its own territory instead of invading somone elses?

Nice straw man. Let us know when you want to join the actual conversation.
Post reply on HN