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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#591

Post by AndyNemmity »

jpttsn wrote: post #572
IAmEveryone wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an intellectually dishonest argument, because it actually uses someone's profession of good intentions, accepts them , and then somehow turns it against the speaker. As used on the internet, it's also useless because it always assumes the speaker doesn't actually act on their believes, and there usually is no way for them to prove their willingness to act on their believes. It also ignores that even just stating…

Reliable signals are as a rule expensive. In decrying “virtue signaling”, I think critics express “talk is cheap” not just “talk can be false.”

Saying "talk is cheap" implores the listener to act on their statements.

Saying "virtue signaling" implores the listeners to stop expressing their views.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#592

Post by robkop »

throwaway84742 wrote: post #559
goatlover wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't step up to Stalin and Mao. Hitler was because of alliance with Britain and the Japanese attack, not because of how awful the Nazis regime was. The US for the most part didn't want to get dragged back into another European conflict. Hitler was bad, yes. But what happened in Germany was rooted in the outcome of WW1, which was rooted in all the alliances and what not proceeding it, which was rooting in yet p…

But they did tho. At least to Stalin. Had they not, all of Europe would now be Soviet Union. This is also why Japan was nuked — to ensure compliance, and create better leverage in negotiations. Otherwise the red army could just continue as far as it wished to go and take over the rest of Europe.

I would strongly argue that the motivation for nukeing Japan was not to give the Soviets an impression but to ensure that American troops didn't have to land on hostile beaches on the Japanese mainland. The decision was mainly made to save American lives by forcing a Japanese surrender

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#593

Post by rifung »

waisbrot wrote: post #93
kbenson wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, honest question, what's worse, helping the military be more accurate in who they attack, or abstaining and perhaps there are more mistakes, and/or collateral damage as they choose the best times/locations to strike that they can find, not the best that could be found. On the one hand, your involvement might help limit "innocent" deaths. On the other, a more effective system might see more use, so more people over…

Research for the military isn't the issue here, it's Google's changing agenda. If the DoD or Raytheon or Weapons Systems Startup LLC hired someone to develop a better system for analyzing drone images, I don't believe that person would be complaining that their work was being used for war -- that's exactly what they signed up for. The problem here is that Google sold their engineers on "Don't Be Evil" and libertarian…

> The problem here is that Google sold their engineers on "Don't Be Evil" and libertarianism and "we're a sweet little tech company that people like" and is now delivering military contracts.

I'm not sure I ever felt Google was libertarian but maybe I just don't understand what that means?

Your comment makes me think this might be a strange viewpoint, but I don't consider "don't be evil" and military contracts to be mutually exclusive. I consider the military to be necessary. Perhaps one day we can live in a world where it won't be, but we are very far from that now, and given we can't even stop people within our own country from killing one another, I don't believe we will be able to stop other countries from invading us if they have nothing to deter them.

Do you consider the people who join the military to also be evil?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#594

Post by AndyNemmity »

dqpb wrote: post #325

Are the Google employees working on this project all American? Google's workforce is heavily multinational, but I would imagine a pentagon project would require some kind of security clearance?

I think you'd be surprised, I've worked on a few government security clearance roles where 80-90% of below management staff were Indian.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#595

Post by darawk »

goatlover wrote: post #105
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

They didn't step up to Stalin and Mao. Hitler was because of alliance with Britain and the Japanese attack, not because of how awful the Nazis regime was. The US for the most part didn't want to get dragged back into another European conflict. Hitler was bad, yes. But what happened in Germany was rooted in the outcome of WW1, which was rooted in all the alliances and what not proceeding it, which was rooting in yet p…

And yet, had all of the engineers in the US refused to participate in military work, guess who'd be running the world right now just the same? The world actually exists and the choices people make in it have real consequences. Not participating in military technology is an unbelievably childish option. If you are at all serious about the ethics of this, you have to choose to support the entity you trust the most. For me, that's the US. Feel free to make your own choices, though.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#596

Post by mattwad »

zaroth wrote: post #141

It boggles my mind, with the current state of affairs, the number of people actively organizing to eliminate or curtail our fundamental human rights. It seems to me that 1st and 2nd amendment rights are both under particularly intense bombardment these days.

How do you think the 2nd amendment is under assault? If you look at the list of things our youth were marching for[1], it doesn't say anything about taking guns away. Just like you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater, you shouldn't be able to walk around with a rocket launcher or semi-automatic weapon. Also, there's no way in hell any group of citizens can fight the US army these days so it seems like a moot point. You don't need automatic weapons to defend your house from intruders, but for some reason our leaders tell these kids that the solution is to shut up, wear invisible back-packs and learn CPR.

[1] https://marchforourlives.com/how-we-save-lives/

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#597

Post by linuxftw »

fancyfacebook wrote: post #569
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, they know few to none of these petitioners will quit. 3,000 petition signatures will do nothing. 3,000 resignations would, but Googlers aren't going to pass up on the high paychecks, three five-star meals a day, and massages in the office based on moral grounds. (In the same vein, Google's NetPAC has been quietly donating the max to Republicans like Paul Ryan and Steve Scalise, while most of their engineers o…

I know multiple people who work at Google that are quitting because of this. Lots of people have lines in the sand when it comes to violence and military work, but those lines are deep for a reason and they don't really want to talk about them so you'd never know.

> are quitting

Do you mean these people have handed in notices or are planning on quitting in the next day or so? Or do you mean these people are considering quitting if google doesn't change its ways? Or do you mean "Some people I know are saying that they will quit" but have no short term plan for actually quitting?

Quitting a job over an ethical issue doesn't take long. It goes like this: "I quit!"

And then, those people are no longer 'quitting' but now have become 'have quit.'

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#598

Post by drak0n1c »

kiliantics wrote: post #413
booblik wrote: post #151

So it says it will improve drone strike accuracy. Isn’t it a good thing? I mean there are currently a lot of civilian casualties from drone strikes, but that doesn’t stop anyone from using them anyway. Wouldn’t at least improving accuracy make thinks better in some regard?

replace "drone strike accuracy" with something like "zyklon b efficacy"

Improving the accuracy of munitions targeting enemy military forces hiding in a building that neighbors civilian buildings/shields is not the same as genocide.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#599

Post by Darthy »

sseth wrote: post #210
Darthy wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracies are in retreat around the world Nope. Not even in the slightest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Waves_of_democracy.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy#Waves_of_...

The graph you are linking to ends in 1998, when Bill Clinton was in power, the US was the sole superpower, the EU was increasing in size, China's GDP was a tenth of what it is now, and i think Boris Yeltsin was running Russia, and most people had not heard of Osama bin laden. I think it is safe to say the world is different now. Look at the backsliding in Turkey, Phillipines, Burma, Venezuela, Egypt. Look at the regi…

We can all look at the data. The graph I linked ends in 2003 (like indicated in the graph itself), and jpollock posted the value for 2016, which is 70, so even higher than 2003. In other words, you are telling incorrect things and when called out, instead of giving in to reality, you are doubling down telling even more incorrect things. Not good. And it's quite saddening that in this forum dedicated to rational discourse, your flawed reasoning is being rewarded with so much attention, currently sitting at fifth place among all root comments.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#600

Post by AndyNemmity »

IAmEveryone wrote: post #242
GiorgioG wrote: post #33

Google is a huge company, turning down big money from the US Gov't for legal purposes is probably not a realistic option (at what point would shareholders sue if they turned down hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue?)

They can sue all they want. But they'll lose. A petition by 3000 employees (or, to be honest, 30) is enough to claim that it was in the company's interest to forgo this revenue to improve their standing among potential hires. Remember that tech companies live and die by the quality of their workforce. Moreover, the idea that companies always have to act according to strict profit motivations is a myth. Just look at t…

It isn't a myth that companies have to act due to strict profit motivations. It's law.

The example you used on charitable causes, falls directly into marketing.

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