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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#541

Post by mhneu »

geofft wrote: post #445
mhneu wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The West since 1950 has done FAR MORE scientific research than the USSR did. Soviet scientists did good work and were smart. But the Western Enlightenment model -- open communication, tolerance of dissenting voices, pursuit of truth and rejection of propaganda, and funding for basic science -- was a huge shining scientific success over the past century. Its success dwarfed that of other models. (Today the biggest…

I don't know that the causal link between the West's scientific output and the West's enlightenment values is that clear. It's certainly correlated. But the reason the US was able to do so much fundamental research in the 20th century is not (just) because the US culturally valued fundamental research - it's because the US was able to get popular support for taxing people and spending it on the war effort (both the W…

The US NIH has a $30B budget to do research on cancer and human disease. Most of that is about helping people and has zero connection to the military.

--- Edit: also, the movement to close down DoE and cut NASAs budget certainly WAS created by American oligarchs like the Koches. They have created a propaganda machine to push for tax cuts for the rich. And part of the propaganda, pushed by outlets funded or controlled by GOP billionaires, like Fox, Limbaugh, Cato(founded as Koch), Sinclair, Heritage, SPN, Cit U, Jud Watch, Bradley, Searle, etc etc. is that we need to shrink government (so we can cut taxes on the rich.)

One description of that strategy is here [1] Today’s Republican Party is the party that those activists made. Congressional Republicans who came up in the populist tax revolts of the 1970s abandoned the old party orthodoxy of balanced budgets and rebranded themselves as the tax-cutting party. They embraced the idea that deficits don’t matter as long as those deficits result from Republican tax cuts.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/opinion/republicans-tax-c...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#542

Post by Jd »

To me this illustrates a huge opportunity: big tech can't effectively engage with public good projects (e.g. typical government territory). What's needed is a tech gov superlayer that provides an umbrella for these services and can also guarantee their internal integrity. The lack of guarantee over this last point is one major problem here.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#543

Post by freedomben »

dfsegoat wrote: post #411
rch wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we should substitute 'strong cryptography' for 'arms' and see what happens.

It is funny you mention that actually - as a personal anecdote, I can say that many of my friends who happen to be advocates for free distro of crypto tech - or more commonly, cryptocurrencies - also tend to be fairly strong 2A advocates. TL;DR; - IMO there is some significant crossover between crypto* people, and 2A people.

I have noticed this correlation as well (I am an example of it in fact). I think there is a common thread of decentralization and bringing power closer to the people that resonates with the two groups.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#544

Post by gebeeson »

timsim09 wrote: post #139

I support Google workers. The hubris of US Military is unprecedented. Our military is already trying to pick a fight mostly for no reason. The more the cost of war drops for them (less killed personnel) the more they will create devastation, look Middle East since Iraq invasion.

The US Military has zero hubris in and of itself. The 'US Military' has so many moving parts and sub-cultures, not including all the support systems, contractors and so on. On a unit by unit basis; it is just a job for many many people. You might be talking about the big picture 'US Military' - it doesn't wield itself either.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#545

Post by pfarnsworth »

confounded wrote: post #511
pfarnsworth wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reason why we SHOULDN'T unionize. It means that workers could potentially be politicized and forced to be a part of things that they don't believe in. Maybe right now we may agree with not militarizing our company, but what if the union starts supporting ideas that you're fundamentally against?

Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? Do you have any personal experience of unionized work? Employees having more of a say about what they work on though collective bargaining, resulting in employees having less of a say on what they work on, seems unlikely to me.

I'm making almost $400,000 total compensation and I'm happily working on things that I love. I don't need a union to tax me and force me to pay dues to do absolutely nothing that will benefit me, besides pay themselves well. On top of that, having a union start representing itself as a political force will definitely upset me.

I may be against the militarization of Google, but what if I weren't? What if I supported it? Then I would be paying money to a union that I fundamentally disagreed with. There is a court case going to the Supreme Court about exactly this issue. What if I were a Democrat, and the union decided to support a Republican candidate?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#546

Post by acct1771 »

laughingman2 wrote: post #282
mkempe wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the entire Bill of Rights in fact pertains to our inalienable, universal rights. There is no difference from what one may term "fundamental" or "human" rights. It doesn't matter what the UN or anyone in other countries say or talk about -- just as the laws of physics are facts regardless of what some people may say or feel. If we have the right to life, we have the right to self-defense. If we have the right to…

Then please petetion your senator to deregulate tanks, fighter jets, nuclear warheads, ballistic missiles, submarines etc. If you are serious about arming civilians as protection to overthrow tyranny, do a better job.

Please explain Vietnam.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#547

Post by djrogers »

jahewson wrote: post #124
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

Nobody stood up to Stalin and Mao. Cherry picking the good stuff doesn’t make the bad stuff acceptable. Carpet bombing of civilians in German cities for example - an act of zero military value. The takeaway from WWII is not that the military is a wonderful thing but that the UN is a wonderful thing.

> The takeaway from WWII is not that the military is a wonderful thing but that the UN is a wonderful thing.

The same UN that causes Cholera outbreaks, protects rapists (as long as they wear blue helmets), and steps aside to allow massive genocides to occur on a not-irregular basis ( Rwanda, Bosnia, Sri Lanka, South Sudan for starters).

Or are you talking about the UN that funded the Oil for Food program so a bunch of super-elite rich people could get kickbacks from an evil dicatator?

Maybe it's the UN that has stood by for decades while more and more dictators and legitimately horrible people acquire and use WMDs (Libya, Syria, North Korea, and on and on)...

Seriously, how much good has the UN actually done that wasn't backedstopped by a US Super Carrier or two?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#548

Post by gebeeson »

timsim09 wrote: post #139

I support Google workers. The hubris of US Military is unprecedented. Our military is already trying to pick a fight mostly for no reason. The more the cost of war drops for them (less killed personnel) the more they will create devastation, look Middle East since Iraq invasion.

'Our military is already trying to pick a fight'

Our military doesn't get to pick the fights. They get to fight the fights.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#549

Post by throwaway84742 »

rjsw wrote: post #313
treebeard901 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

The 2nd amendment doesn't apply to foreigners. Classifying encryption as a munition meant that I have never truthfully answered all the visa waiver questions on entering the US.

It does. A permanent resident alien can purchase and carry firearms in most states, and nonresident aliens can get a license to do so as well.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#550

Post by larkeith »

jcwayne wrote: post #165

Serious question for those who agree with this petition. Which country's military would you like to see be the most technologically advanced in 20 years?

This feels like Begging the Question - your post implies that AI targeting will:

A) not be developed without support from Google, which is categorically untrue; The DoD might simply find it more difficult to acquire top talent if that talent is opposed to the work on philosophical grounds.

And B) be necessary for the US military to remain the most advanced and/or powerful in 20 years, which is also exceptionally doubtful - unless you believe ML to have such effective wartime applications as to render a nearly threefold larger military budget (compared to China, the next largest) moot.

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