Live data from Hacker News

Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

bloomberg.com

981–990 of 1001 posts

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#981
post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several aspect to the perf hypotheses you make, and I don't see why Apple could not design its own CPU with excellent perfs. Current Apple best CPUs are already performing very well compared to some Intel CPU. Not the fastest Intel CPU, obviously, but a) Apple Arm implementation is already above all the Arm competitors b) we are talking about an Arm implementation optimized for low energy consumption and ot…

>Some last points are that: top CPU speed are (mostly) not growing anymore. That lets others catch up Intel in the few area that they did not yet -- others also are catching up on the process side. Meanwhile in reality the top end non apple ARM SoCs only have the performance of a single highend intel core. http://browser.geekbench.com/android-benchmarks/ vs http://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/7779910

Yes but Apple has an edge compared to other ARM (and that's what we've been discussing about in the first place) and comparing the CPU speed of an energy optimized phone SoC to an high end desktop core is absolutely not representative of what you can expect from a team tasked with creating a CPU core dedicated to performance in the first place, with less power constraints. (And that's also why the work Apple has already done on their own CPU is so impressive, btw.)

Otherwise I could as well take the perf of an IBM z14 mainframe and compare it to an existing smartphone SoC, and declare that Arm is doomed because too slow. Note than even increasing the clock alone of those ARM cores would increase the perf greatly -- it might not be possible without modifying them in various degree right now (if you don't target high freq to begin with, you can afford to work less on the length of some critical data path), but given today processes it is very probably not extremely hard to tune the design if needed.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#982
post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2/3s of all PR activity on Github is on a Mac, for what it's worth. Certainly the platform punches above its weight relative to market share. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2017/102/?time=2...

probably related to the fact that the top language on Github is javascript. If you do anything else than UI scripts, I would agree with the above and say you are better off with a linux box.

Yes that, plus it could be that MacBook/Pros are popular with students: many of whom create lots of tiny Hello World etc repos.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#983
post #980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an excuse when Windows 10 can run most Windows NT4.0 software, can get to run win3.1 and dos apps (which are different OS, not just older versions). Userspace GNU/Linux is also pretty bad about this, despite the effort put in by Linux.

A few simple apps here and there is not most Windows app. I keep a windows 98 VM around simply because developers played fast and loose with the security of the OS. They would not be able to do that today. Like a user editable ini file in the windows folder.

Yeah, Windows 98 is a completely different OS from modern Windoes, makes sense that compatibility is not strong. It would be like expecting OSX 10 to run classic Mac apps.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#984
post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my second to last company (a web development shop), they had originally the policy that a new developers can choose if he want either a mac, linux or windows machine. When i arrived there it was 75% mac and the rest used linux, not even one had made the choice for windows. After a while some new guys get hired and one of them wanted to use windows. We found out immediately, that this caused a lot of problems, beca…

I guess from a business point of view it makes sense, but I really get frustrated when I find an open source project that's completely unbuildable on Windows. Maybe the developer in question would have been better using a manually created VM or WSL?

Windows is a bad product made by a company that has historically been a bad and unethical actor that has attempted to limit user freedom and destroy freedom of choice by illegally destroying competitors. Recently we are to believe that they have found jesus and ethics via quiet contemplation and peaceful regime change.

All projects are ultimately created to scratch somebodies itch. If it doesn't work on windows out of the box that isn't their use case. What you are wondering is in effect is why people don't pay money to purchase a windows license which will ultimately fund a bad and evil company in order to enable the projects software to run on an inferior OS that the dev doesn't run or care about. If its not end user software for desktop users it doesn't even have the positive effect of enabling a substantially bigger group of potential users to benefit from the software. For anything server related they are either already running linux or can as easily run a linux vm as a windows one.

Further the users who would benefit will by and large buy a license if the software is non free but probably wont contribute anything but complaints phrased similarly to the support requests they would make for paid products that had failed to perform adequately.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#985
post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't trust that for two reasons: 1) There is a lot of cargo-culting around the MacBook because hurr durr Windows is terribad (though, to be fair, Docker does work better natively with OS X than Windows, even under WSL), and 2) Most companies give their developers the choice of a MacBook or the shittiest Windows machines known to man (because of irresistable volume deals from Windows OEMs). I bet the spread would b…

While I do prefer MacOS over Windows, I believe that you have a point in regards to the computers companies (and people in general) run Windows on. Most of issues people have with Windows can easily be explained by low quality hardware. If you need a decent laptop, you're looking at price tags above $1000. Depending on where you live, I wouldn't buy a Windows laptop below $1400, if you expect to be happy with it. Hon…

Do you think that they want to cede the entire low end market to chromebooks/linux?

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#986
post #807

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't trust that for two reasons: 1) There is a lot of cargo-culting around the MacBook because hurr durr Windows is terribad (though, to be fair, Docker does work better natively with OS X than Windows, even under WSL), and 2) Most companies give their developers the choice of a MacBook or the shittiest Windows machines known to man (because of irresistable volume deals from Windows OEMs). I bet the spread would b…

When I asked for a newer MBP, i got bitched out by the purchasing director. He made the point that I was one of only a handful of people in a 500 person IS department allowed to have a Mac. Many companies don’t allow mac purchases, even for developers.

A company that balks at spending 2k to enable an asset who costs 50k-250k annually to perform maximally isn't very wise. We are talking about spending 1-4% more.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#987
post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only complaint is that if the mac were truly a developer-centric device, I wouldn't need homebrew to install software. It should just be in the apple store for me to download.

I think that'd be a disservice to both developers and non-developers alike. It'd clutter the app store and force developers to use the app store and whatever approval process they decide. I think it would be cumbersome to say the least... * Would you have to install through the app store gui? * How would it manage dependency chains and conflicts (system ruby vs local ruby)? * How about explicit paths or build paramet…

* Would you have to install through the app store gui?

With various linux package management systems you have multiple interfaces to the same same system thus you can at one moment use the gui to install foo and having closed that you can fire up your favorite terminal and run install bar.

* It'd clutter the app store and force developers to use the app store and whatever approval process they decide.

It also has a concept that neither Microsoft Apple nor Google has opted to pick up on because they desire control of their platform and to extract a substantial tax on all software sold on same via such control... sources also called repositories.

Linux package management systems draw from not a single centrally managed source but a user editable list of sources. Each source is free to run with their own set of requirements. There is nothing requiring a hypothetical dev tools source from being any more restrictive than whomever maintains the source used by homebrew.

Further packages can actually contain sources. It would be entirely trivial to package up a source of dev tools as a package and allow people to install that via the front end of their choice.

* How would it handle different shells?

Different shells is probably the simplest answer the arguments to a hypothetical install command would be simple text strings. If the argument command includes characters that the shell considers special characters they would have be escaped or wrapped in quotes like any other combo of shell and cli tool. Generally most package names just don't include characters like ([])$\~`'" in the name and most commands don't require any particular special attention to shell escapes.

* How would it manage dependency chains and conflicts (system ruby vs local ruby)?

* How about explicit paths or build parameters?

These are implementation details that don't go away by exiling developer tooling to officially unsupported channels. For example language specific package managers will probably remain a thing but it would be vastly easier if you could do officalmacpackage install developerrepo then officialmacpackage install cargo|node|whateverfloatsyourboat then use that to deal with whatever.

All your concerns are basically lack of experience with more reasonable systems there are zero good reasons not to do this. There are literally no downsides other than the work required for an official solution. However it seems vastly unlikely that we will ever see such a thing.

The logical endpoint of Apple's vision seems to be 2 classes of device. One with a very high introductory price and annual maintenance that allows you to create and run whatever you like so long as such software is distributed via blessed channels and you tithe the required 30% to apple and more reasonably priced but still expensive devices that only allow you to consume software.

The former will come with xcode and technology to deal with apple approved languages. You will be able to play with other tech on your local devices but it wont be able to be distributed to end users.

The latter will be as open as your ipad is now.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#988

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's missing from a modern Linux desktop Networking, printer stuff, graphics stuff that works immediately after installation, without one having to search for various problems & fixes on the Internet. And that doesn't randomly break after kernel upgrades. Because of running into networking & graphics driver problems every now and then (and having to revert to older kernel versions), and problems with printers & d…

I have used Debian almost exclusively for ten years, not counting the last couple months where I've been doing Windows 10 for some contract work. I can't remember the last time I ran into problems with networking, printer setup, or really anything except suspend/hibernation, barring one astonishingly cheap ($168 at Walmart) machine that had a weird integrated Bluetooth/wireless/something else card without a free driv…

Well I suppose there're lots of people who never ran into any problems. I've been using Ubuntu and Mint mainly, and usually that works fine for me too (with most laptops & desktops I've had). In one case though (maybe 3 years ago), on fairly new hardware IIRC, I've had to test various kernel versions, until I found one that was compatible with the graphics stuff on the laptop. And then take care to not accidentally auto-upgrade to another kernel version. In another case, networking in Ubuntu didn't work after installation. I installed another distro instead and then everything (incl networking) worked fine directly. Finding printer drivers that doesn't just print random garbage characters, is usually super frustrating (I think), largely because the printer company webites' UX is terrible.

I think one is safer, if one use a bit older hardware (laptops and printers), because then the Linux people have had time to look into bug reports and incompatibility problems and fix them?

Nowadays when buying a new laptop, I always websearch for the laptop name + "Linux problems" or something like that, to see what bugs & incompatibilities other people have reported already. And then maybe I decide to avoid that laptop. But ... I wouldn't expect my parents or most other people to do this. Instead they'll buy a "random" laptop with new "unknown" hardware, and then there'll be a 20% ? risk that networking or graphics won't work for them? And I think they'll need help to get the printer working. ... And with all that in mind I feel I need to slightly warn them about Linux.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#989

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd I find hotkeys much better on Mac. They follow a more logical predictable pattern and are much more standarized. E.g. what is the standard windows hotkey for getting info/properties of an object. Never found one. Also if an app doesn’t have configuration of hotkeys you are screwed. On Mac hotkey config is OS wide. The command console experience on windows is horrible. Office apps are better on Mac. Pages, numbers…

What? As much as I'd like for the Excel dominance to end, I can't see how anyone would ever work quicker in Numbers over Excel for any work that takes more than an hour a month. The ribbon interface offers shortcuts to pretty much every single function through the keyboard in an interactive way. I can't say the same about Numbers.

What exactly is it you do in Excel which is quicker than Numbers?

Numbers excel at what a spreadsheet application should be about. Once you get very complex sheets you are much better off using more specialized software such as DataGraph, R, Julia, Matlab, Numpy, SAS

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#990
post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that is more about the boxes they use than CPU. The difficulty of adding your own hard drives, memory, graphics cards etc to a Mac is the biggest problem I think. What pro task, really requires high single thread performance? I imagine Apple could match intel by simply using more cores on their ARM CPUs.

Audio from what I know is best with have multiple high speed cores, rather than many lower speed cores. (I use my machines for audio)

And what are your processing times like? I use my Mac for video editing, but I have never had any problems doing that smoothly even on much weaker Macs.

Only issue I have on Mac is compiling large programs.

Post reply on HN