Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#391

Post by gfo » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:20 PM UTC

GiorgioG wrote: post #336

tolgerias wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force, and all matters should be resolved in a civil court of law. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the defin…

> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. If that's the case, I don't want to live anywhere else. If someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night, they pose a deadly threat to my family. In what country would you not feel the same way? > Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state. Not all states are benevolent, nor a…

Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life?

Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? The same people who are large proponents of the 2nd Amendment also seem to encourage a massive defense budget which seems backwards to me.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#392

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#393

Post by mempko » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

People also seem to forget that the Google self driving car was initially developed by the team that one the DARPA challenge. Government, especially the military have been funding all the risky tech that Google profits from. Even google itself was funded by a government grant. Google's logo has been on the side of rockets launching spy satellites for years. Google Maps was originally a government contractor. Google the company knows who butters their bread.

What the google employees need to do is push for a civilian government research and science funding effort, like ARPA was back in the day. Unfortunately that sort of funding is politically dead, while military funding is always in style.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#394

Post by 928jf0923 » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

mr_spothawk wrote: post #278

rdtsc wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends how you look at it. What was the purpose. Presumably after fighting in the Revolutionary War the goal was not to give people hunting privileges, they had something else in mind. From that point of view, maybe RPGs should be allowed, but so should attack helicopters, surveillance capabilities, private spy satellites, etc. > IANAL but I’m pretty sure the second amendment only applies to guns; you can’t walk…

> It depends how you look at it. I recently purchased the Federalist Papers so I could have a better understanding of "how" to read it, what the context was, and what types of discussions to anticipate having with those who'd like to look at it differently

The Federalist Papers don't matter much in 2017. The doctrinal position of the courts today is the 2nd Amendment is not wide open. It's for defense of self and family IN THE HOME or defense of state.

It doesn't restrict states from legalizing further concessions, though.

Been reading about it with the Parkland stories.

Antonin Scalia wrote that the 2nd is not unlimited, it doesn't allow possession of any type of weapon for any use case, just a couple years before he died.

I can't find the article he was quoted in, but around the time of the last SCOTUS case related to 2nd, an NRA exec was on record, I'm paraphrasing, something like "the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting."

The right side of the argument allows the romanticized notions to flourish as political ammo.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#395

Post by rplst8 » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

mkempe wrote: post #303

laughingman2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then please petetion your senator to deregulate tanks, fighter jets, nuclear warheads, ballistic missiles, submarines etc. If you are serious about arming civilians as protection to overthrow tyranny, do a better job.

We already have the National Guard [1] --aka militias-- which provide ample check from the State level against a would-be dictatorship at the Federal level. For further self-education, one may want to read The Federalist Papers, in particular no 46 written by Madison (see [2] for a discussion of the issue). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_S... [2] http://tracinskiletter.com/2018/03/21/t…

The national guard is NOT the militia.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#396

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #49

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument. This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years. 1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed. 2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community…

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#397

Post by gfo » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

reitanqild wrote: post #357

chrischen wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be argued that the 2nd amendment was put in place to ensure a means of the citizenry to overthrow the government (as an absolute check on an unjust government). Unfortunately it's now just a vestige of an older time and the 2nd amendment only serves to protect the rights of gun hobbyists. The guns that a person are allowed to bear are nowhere near sufficient to take on the US military, and the modern arms su…

> The guns that a person are allowed to bear are nowhere near sufficient to take on the US military, I'm tired of reminding HNers about Aghanistan.

Can you elaborate?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#398

Post by wu-ikkyu » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #49

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument. This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years. 1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed. 2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community…

If you're so worried about the world destroying itself with its own weapons, how are you going to enforce your weapons ban without using weapons?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#399

Post by jankeymeulen » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:25 PM UTC

criley2 wrote: post #28

robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

One of the bigger issues I have with this that Google is only doing this kind of work for the US military, which for me as a non-US Googler makes me a bit uncomfortable. Because some relatives have been fighting the US military not even that long ago.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#400

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

mkempe wrote: post #303

laughingman2 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then please petetion your senator to deregulate tanks, fighter jets, nuclear warheads, ballistic missiles, submarines etc. If you are serious about arming civilians as protection to overthrow tyranny, do a better job.

We already have the National Guard [1] --aka militias-- which provide ample check from the State level against a would-be dictatorship at the Federal level. For further self-education, one may want to read The Federalist Papers, in particular no 46 written by Madison (see [2] for a discussion of the issue). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_the_United_S... [2] http://tracinskiletter.com/2018/03/21/t…

The constitutional concept of the militia is universal (well, universal for adult free males, at least, but arguably the limitations their relate to limitations applicable to the concept of full citizenship at the time, not special ones for the militia); the National Guard is a subset of or overlaps with the militia (and is, as it is structured, in some ways, in conflict with the conceptualized role of the militia in securing liberty) but is not equivalent to the militia.