Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#361

Post by vowelless » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

titzer wrote: post #191

sseth wrote: post #135

Do we really want to test a theory that we can have a repeat of the 1930s when the democracies fell far behind an autocratic regime in the arms race, and again the autocratic regimes will not win? Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late. The military-industrial complex may have become far bigger and perhaps in some ways a burden, but the world is a dangerous place…

> Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late. What are you advocating? Arming governments with autonomous killer drones in order to "protect democracy"? Because the world is a "dangerous place"? I don't even...

Considering that democracy means people choosing their government, the power would need to be in the hands of the people, not the government, to protect democracy. What will the population do if the government goes rogue and imposes autocracy?

Some might say this is the purpose of the second amendment.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by cosmobot » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:51 PM UTC

sseth wrote: post #135

Do we really want to test a theory that we can have a repeat of the 1930s when the democracies fell far behind an autocratic regime in the arms race, and again the autocratic regimes will not win? Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late. The military-industrial complex may have become far bigger and perhaps in some ways a burden, but the world is a dangerous place…

"the world is a dangerous place and becoming more so."

Are you basing this statement on a general feeling or on a specific data-based metric? The military industrial complex greatly benefits from this common sentiment, but by most all quantitative measurements the world continues growing slowly safer, average lifespans increase, etc. While years-long aberrations exist (e.g. civil wars), the overall trend is very clearly antithetical to your statement.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

tolgerias wrote: post #315

tolgerias wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force, and all matters should be resolved in a civil court of law. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the defin…

I can only reply to myself (low score?) but my point was not that self defense is not justifiable in extreme cases (though I made that point. I didn't choose my words wisely). What I mean is that by no means is the citizen expected to engage in vigilante justice or apply force against the state. That leads to lawlessness and was kind of hinted by the parent comment. The state should have the monopoly of force _to app…

[deleted]

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by jacquesm » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:52 PM UTC

vowelless wrote: post #349

jacquesm wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My issue is with the hypocrisy. There are degrees of morality. Just like a criminal might object to being defrauded because they feel it crosses a line. Everybody is a hypocrite to some extent, you at least seem to be aware of that fact that you are simply a gun for hire which makes it easier to reason about the position of others.

> you at least seem to be aware of that fact that you are simply a gun for hire which makes it easier to reason about the position of others. That probably is the case. Morality is also very subjective (which, to some, is a matter of belief). Maybe "hypocrisy" is not the right word. Perhaps I was looking for "lack of self awareness". That is kind of what I meant with "delusion". There are a lot of good, empathetic pe…

To some extent living in a self-reinforcing bubble will cause people to believe their own bullshit. SV is not unique in this, there are plenty of people who are obviously busy with enriching themselves and their buddies while doing this 'to improve the world'. I don't buy it, and I would prefer it if they were honest about it but then again what does it matter, they're certainly not fooling anybody.

The few that really want to improve the world stand out and don't feel the need to sell themselves as improving the world, they don't need to: it's obvious, their actions speak louder than words.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by almost_usual » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:53 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #195

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending. Just recently in the AI space: - Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1] - Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentago…

It starts well before Silicon Valley, Engineering Departments get large portions of their revenues through Defense programs.

MIT's Lincoln Laboratory made 27% of their revenue (roughly a billion dollars) in 2016. That's one research center.

http://web.mit.edu/facts/financial.html

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by criley2 » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:54 PM UTC

goatlover wrote: post #105

criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

They didn't step up to Stalin and Mao. Hitler was because of alliance with Britain and the Japanese attack, not because of how awful the Nazis regime was. The US for the most part didn't want to get dragged back into another European conflict. Hitler was bad, yes. But what happened in Germany was rooted in the outcome of WW1, which was rooted in all the alliances and what not proceeding it, which was rooting in yet p…

Oh, the US didn't meet the USSR in Berlin, stop the westward movement of the Soviet advance, saving dozens of countries from communism?

My bad, I totally forgot that the Cold War never happened and that the soldiers of WW2 didn't form a hard border in Berlin that they were not friendly over.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by convolvatron » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #31

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

this itar business had a huge chilling effect on the formative years of internet protocol design. public key was available at the time. here were alot of loud voices in ietf clamoring for strong foundational security. The US position made it highly impractical to use, and may have cost us an effective and ubiquitous security/identity model.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by wu-ikkyu » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:55 PM UTC

laughingman2 wrote: post #282

mkempe wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the entire Bill of Rights in fact pertains to our inalienable, universal rights. There is no difference from what one may term "fundamental" or "human" rights. It doesn't matter what the UN or anyone in other countries say or talk about -- just as the laws of physics are facts regardless of what some people may say or feel. If we have the right to life, we have the right to self-defense. If we have the right to…

Then please petetion your senator to deregulate tanks, fighter jets, nuclear warheads, ballistic missiles, submarines etc. If you are serious about arming civilians as protection to overthrow tyranny, do a better job.

>Thus, for example, tanks, battleships and bombing planes are inherently tyrannical weapons, while rifles, muskets, long-bows, and hand-grenades are inherently democratic weapons. A complex weapon makes the strong stronger, while a simple weapon — so long as there is no answer to it — gives claws to the weak.

George Orwell, "You and the Atom Bomb", Tribune (19 October 1945)

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by marnett » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:56 PM UTC

sseth wrote: post #285

stale2002 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we already have nukes, why would we need anything else? Nukes prevent any war from happening between any powerful nation. The only use for the other types of weapons is to participate in some other civil war in another country that we shouldn't be in. So no, I don't care if we "fall behind" because we still have nukes and those are enough to protect us in the conflicts that matter.

Nukes are an instrument of last resort, but you don't want to get to the point where that is your only option. And it is possible that technical advances in missile defence may blunt this advantage. Being able to prevent friendly (and even neutral) countries from being bullied or going over to the dark side is also important because ultimately the best defence against rising autocratic forces is to ensure a broad all…

> If a country like the USA can have its elections manipulated, how vulnerable might smaller democracies be?

The CIA could most certainly help you answer that quite quantitatively.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

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Post by travmatt » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 6:57 PM UTC

tc7 wrote: post #343

criley2 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Tartars are over the hills. Democracy is in decline. Authoritarianism is on the mega-rise. The state of democracy is bad and looking worse, and if the Brexit/Trump trend of destroying the EU and breaking up the Atlantic Alliance bear just a bit more fruit, you may find that these "Tartars" are a lot closer to you than you once believed. You call me blind to the future by looking at the past, but quite frankly, yo…

It's not obvious to me that democracy is in decline, or authoritarianism on the rise. Over what time-frame? Do you have supporting data you can point me to ("In the past 10 years, more countries have switched from democratic to non-democratic government than vice versa")? Thanks!

You’d probably be interested in the book “How democracies die” by two Harvard political scientists. They walk through the warning signs of a failing democracy and how many others have collapsed - and the answer is actually yes, there are plenty of warning signs that American democracy in particular is in trouble.

Some of the evidence they walk through: the collapse of political norms, political restraint and the rise of win at all costs brinksmanship, the delegitimization and dehumanization of political rivals, attacks against independent institutions and neutral arbiters, and much more.