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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#191

Post by titzer »

sseth wrote: post #135

Do we really want to test a theory that we can have a repeat of the 1930s when the democracies fell far behind an autocratic regime in the arms race, and again the autocratic regimes will not win? Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late. The military-industrial complex may have become far bigger and perhaps in some ways a burden, but the world is a dangerous place…

> Democracies are in retreat around the world, and I only hope we wake up before it is too late.

What are you advocating? Arming governments with autonomous killer drones in order to "protect democracy"? Because the world is a "dangerous place"? I don't even...

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#192

Post by tclancy »

nbar1 wrote: post #153
tclancy wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this would all be a little more interesting coming from a different username.

The point is certainly valid. If Google steps out of this, they are just going to find someone to fill those shoes.

No, that's simply not true. Lots of things were "Just how things are" until enough people stood up and said "No". Googles' employees are actually using their privilege to try to make a high-profile stand. No idea if it will make a difference, but it is far better than not trying.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#193

Post by tclancy »

jimmaswell wrote: post #35
tclancy wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if they're more accurate the marginal cost of killing people in other parts of the world will go down even more so we'll be even less likely to reflect on whether the fact we can easily use robots to kill people on the other side of the world who have no way of responding symmetrically might come back to bite us in the ass?

I don't think the marginal cost of these things has been that much of a consideration in the past. Less American military personnel will be put in harm's way as technology like this advances. Maybe wars will even be mostly unmanned remotely controlled machine-vs-machine in the future.

I was using that phrase a little loosely to mean "Fewer American soldiers being hurt or killed".

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#194

Post by walshemj »

richmarr wrote: post #169
zaroth wrote: post #141

It boggles my mind, with the current state of affairs, the number of people actively organizing to eliminate or curtail our fundamental human rights. It seems to me that 1st and 2nd amendment rights are both under particularly intense bombardment these days.

I'm not sure if you meant to imply that the 2nd amendment is a fundamental human right but if so I think that's a bit of a stretch. 'Fundamental rights' (under US law) I think is defensible as fundamental is treated as an alias for constitutional so guns are in. 'Fundamental human rights' to me implies broad and fundamental applicability, i.e. the UN declarations and covenants on human rights, which don't iterate gun…

Common law (root of UK and US law) does have the right to self defence.

And this "other countries" mm a lot of this had constitutions where the citizens where given some rights by the king and not have universal rights.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#195

Post by abalone »

I completely support the employees but it is criminal that this NYT article does not mention the extensive roots of Silicon Valley in Pentagon funding. SV as a whole is substantially a creation of military spending.

Just recently in the AI space:

- Siri was spun out of a Pentagon project -- look up SRI International and CALO. Its purpose: a "soldier’s servant".[1]

- Autonomous driving is a direct evolution of Pentagon-funded efforts -- see DARPA Grand Challenge.

And it's not just funding the early research, it's procurement like this too. Military procurement has also supported the development of technologies when the commercial market couldn't.

Again, I support the employees and hate the fact that in order to develop medical lasers we first have to figure out how to shoot down missiles with them. It's hugely inefficient, could spell our doom, and if you think about it, fundamentally undemocratic. (Gives elites more power to direct taxpayer dollars under the rubric of defense.) But this should be a basic part of any story on how Silicon Valley works.

And to think that SV has a large population of supposedly "small government" Libertarian Capitalists... oh, the mental gymnastics in that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CALO

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#196

Post by tclancy »

mankash666 wrote: post #88
tclancy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Grow the fuck up - part of living in a democracy is tolerating the implementation of measures one disagrees with And tolerating the opinions of others.

Are you mistaking a swear word for intolerance?

No, the suggestion that any conflicting viewpoint is a sign of immaturity. No one would ever suspect someone who can't speak to a fucking stranger without cursing struggles with maturity as well.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#197

Post by titzer »

nyxtom wrote: post #75

I for one would rather have a drone strike program that actually actively avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. There are certainly gray areas here as far as the use of that program from a political standpoint (whether the strikes are warranted or whether it is part of regime changes). On the other hand, by not helping the military become more efficient we also risk losing existing lives (our own and civili…

I am not able to understand because I'm stuck at "the government uses autonomous robots to kill people extra-judiciously with missiles from the sky and nobody seems to care."

And you want to make the program "more efficient."

This is the gulf which I cannot seem to bridge.

Extra-judicial killings of "terrorists" in "bad places" using flying killer robots is just batshit insane to me. I cannot for the life of me understand how that conversation would go with, e.g. Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton. Or really anyone who believes in human rights.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#198

Post by icebraining »

s3r3nity wrote: post #99
Eridrus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While I appreciate the engineers speaking out, it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another. This is nonsense, Google has plenty of revenue and other non-defense avenues for growth. Companies are not beholden to chase every last dollar, especially if it could alienate their workforce. I don't have the s…

I agree with you somewhat, but I imagine the shareholders would revolt against upper-management from the significant loss in revenue + media backlash that would be inevitable ("Google hates the US government!" etc etc.) As a comparison, imagine if Tim Cook took a stronger privacy stance in China that we have in the states on moral grounds, and the result was China banning all Apple sales there. He would be tossed imm…

1) The shareholders are part of Google.

2) A very small group of people control all the votes in Google, thanks to different classes of shares. While this is not foolproof, courts rarely overrule decisions.

3) You can incur in loss of revenue too if a non-insignificant part of your workforce is resentful.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#199

Post by localhost »

cloudwalking wrote: post #138
treebeard901 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I…

It does not, because the 2nd amendment protects arms, not munitions (for example, bombs).

Here is the entire text of the 2nd Amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#200

Post by ocdtrekkie »

magneticnorth wrote: post #186
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, they know few to none of these petitioners will quit. 3,000 petition signatures will do nothing. 3,000 resignations would, but Googlers aren't going to pass up on the high paychecks, three five-star meals a day, and massages in the office based on moral grounds. (In the same vein, Google's NetPAC has been quietly donating the max to Republicans like Paul Ryan and Steve Scalise, while most of their engineers o…

I know at least one Googler who really will quit if Google continues to contribute to drone warfare research. Yes, they like the high paychecks, five-star meals and massages, but the market for ML and AI experts is very strong right now. The high paycheck can be matched elsewhere, and the benefits of not contributing to drone warfare research are worth spending a bit of that money on food and massages. But as I said,…

This is good to hear, even in a single-person capacity.
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