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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#121

Post by shadofx »

meri_dian wrote: post #10

>"...that uses artificial intelligence to interpret video imagery and could be used to improve the targeting of drone strikes." These drone strikes have been happening for decades without interpretive AI, and they will probably continue with or without. So let's make the strikes more precise and save more civilians. >"But improved analysis of drone video could be used to pick out human targets for strikes, while also…

The need for human operators to identify targets serves as a hard logistical limit to how many drone strikes can be delivered. Turning them into a machine removes that limit.

Suppose you decrease error rate by 10% (optimistic), but increase volume by 20% (probably underestimated). You'll get an 8% increase in innocent deaths.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#122

Post by ataturk »

komali2 wrote: post #49
rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument. This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years. 1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed. 2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community…

Every policy idea you have listed is idiotic.

Globalism == lack of agency, the end of voting and elections.

Universal education == total indoctrination and ideological consistency of the collectivistic variety.

Universal healthcare == the end of individual choice, individual responsibility, all new extensive taxing regimes, the destruction of the individual on many levels.

Gun Control == People control. Then total domination by the state and a monopoly on the use of force. Which, by the way, has never worked out well for any citizen anywhere.

I think you probably need to study some history before spouting off on HN about your perfect utopia and realize that it's all been attempted in the past with terrible consequences.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#123

Post by adventured »

friedman23 wrote: post #95
chiefalchemist wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funding come from the DoD because any other appropriate entity is financially starved because the DoD gets so much money. The latest budget provides them: $700,000,000,000 Or as Obama said in the 2016 State of the Union: "We spend more on defense than the next 8 nations COMBINED." Keep in mind, most of that 8 are allies. I struggle to see why we should be praising a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Just imagine if we stopped spending on defense in the 80s when the cold war ended and we had to deal with today's Russia with decades old technology

Or how about having to deal with the rapidly ascendant Chinese military that is annexing vast territory in Asia right now? There's nothing they respect except for strength, they're not even subtle about that fact.

Or if the US hadn't spent over a trillion dollars defending South Korea from the China, USSR, North Korea axis across decades. South Korea would not exist as we know it today. It'd more likely look like North Korea.

There's an exceptionally strong argument for the US working with regional military allies in Europe and Asia on defense and having a very powerful military to match its $20 trillion economy. Should the spending be more like $450 billion or $730 billion - that's the primary debate.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#124

Post by jahewson »

criley2 wrote: post #28
robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

Nobody stood up to Stalin and Mao. Cherry picking the good stuff doesn’t make the bad stuff acceptable. Carpet bombing of civilians in German cities for example - an act of zero military value.

The takeaway from WWII is not that the military is a wonderful thing but that the UN is a wonderful thing.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#125

Post by jonlucc »

nyxtom wrote: post #75

I for one would rather have a drone strike program that actually actively avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. There are certainly gray areas here as far as the use of that program from a political standpoint (whether the strikes are warranted or whether it is part of regime changes). On the other hand, by not helping the military become more efficient we also risk losing existing lives (our own and civili…

I'm fairly sure the push-back to this kind of point is thus: if you make it less costly (in the form of "civilian" lives, money, or whatever measure) to do drone strikes, more people are killed overall. Our government hasn't exactly been good about reporting casualties from strikes or careful in targeting (a group of people gathered outside of a city may just be considered up-to-no-good and bombed).

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#126

Post by ixtli »

goatlover wrote: post #105
criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

They didn't step up to Stalin and Mao. Hitler was because of alliance with Britain and the Japanese attack, not because of how awful the Nazis regime was. The US for the most part didn't want to get dragged back into another European conflict. Hitler was bad, yes. But what happened in Germany was rooted in the outcome of WW1, which was rooted in all the alliances and what not proceeding it, which was rooting in yet p…

It's amazing the degree to which people are ignorant of what you've said here and imagine the US was motivated by ideology.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#127

Post by olliej »

jbob2000 wrote: post #57
danesparza wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

Oh man, is this why I have to complete all this encryption and export compliance bullcrap every time I have an iOS release?

Yes

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#128

Post by jeremyjh »

ixtli wrote: post #119
komali2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument. This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years. 1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed. 2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community…

Capital interests wont go away quietly, but I hope you're right.

I doubt they will go away peacefully, either. I cannot think of an instance in history where they have though I’d love to be wrong.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#129

Post by ataturk »

robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

It barely matters. If you won't do it, someone else will happily step in to earn that paycheck. I have fought against the MIC my whole life and have been extremely careful about what kind of work I take on. It hasn't made a bit of difference. Ethics are dead.

The total state is likely our future whether we like it or not.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#130

Post by Mvandenbergh »

GiorgioG wrote: post #33

Google is a huge company, turning down big money from the US Gov't for legal purposes is probably not a realistic option (at what point would shareholders sue if they turned down hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue?)

Never, successfully, considering that the absolute control of the founders was made clear at IPO and at all subsequent points.
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