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Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

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Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#141

Post by matte_black »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #121
Veelox wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not German, can you explain what Germany's laws are and how it makes them safer than the USA?

Storage laws are super strict, police can and do come in your house to check that you have your gun in your safe. You aren’t supposed to lose it, or let anyone else get ahold of it. Psych evaluation required for those under 25 (to cut down on school shootings), more restrictions on fuller background checks and so on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany

Police busting in your home to check anything is dead on arrival. They need a warrant and probable cause. Not happening. The other stuff is good.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#142

Post by ac29 »

QuadmasterXLII wrote: post #100
Veelox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if so many gun owners really do support sensible gun control laws Would you be willing to outline what you count as sensible gun control laws and what you hope to accomplish with these gun laws?

First off, legalizing CDC research into gun violence seems like a reasonable step

The CDC was never explicitly banned from researching gun violence, though the Dickey Amendment "outlawed spending tax dollars on gun control advocacy", which made it difficult to determine what sorts of research might be allowed. This was recently clarified to explicitly allow gun violence research, though that still isn't funded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2018/0...

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#143

Post by Veelox »

kelnos wrote: post #99
matte_black wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, the term assault rifle probably isn’t what you think you’re referring to. Second, the reason effective conversations can’t be had on gun control is because of how emotional and out of touch the anti-gun crowd gets. A lot of this is due to activists and the media riling people up. Gun owners are all about safety and personal responsibility, and many do support sensible gun control laws. The problem is, as s…

> Gun owners are all about safety and personal responsibility If that were universally true, we wouldn't have so many gun deaths in the US. I absolutely believe that some (perhaps even many) gun owners handle their guns safely and responsibly, but the laws ensuring such safety and responsibility are few and far between and lack teeth. > Nothing can be done unless people start taking a rational, sober approach to thes…

>universal background checks

This would be worth doing.

>stricter controls on what can disqualify some people from owning a gun

Possible but it would depend on what you wanted to disqualify people for.

>mandatory training and licensing

I don't think this is reasonable or politically feasible.

>restrictions on ammo purchases

Not sure what good this would do in reducing gun deaths. You would be hitting target shooter pretty hard for not much gain.

>restrictions on ... magazine size

I don't see how this would be very helpful and always strikes me as something advocated for by people who don't understand guns very much. It's part of why you see such opposition to it.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#144

Post by seanmcdirmid »

malvosenior wrote: post #132
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the police are more aggresssive because they know any citizen can be armed

When there’s a power imbalance, it’s sadly human nature to exploit it and become aggressive. For instance: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

There are so many guns, police have to assume everyone is armed in dangerous. So accidental shootings by police of innocent civilians is significant and, unfortunately in our society, seen as mostly unavoidable.

This is completely unrelated to the Stanford experiment.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#145

Post by seanmcdirmid »

matte_black wrote: post #141
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage laws are super strict, police can and do come in your house to check that you have your gun in your safe. You aren’t supposed to lose it, or let anyone else get ahold of it. Psych evaluation required for those under 25 (to cut down on school shootings), more restrictions on fuller background checks and so on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany

Police busting in your home to check anything is dead on arrival. They need a warrant and probable cause. Not happening. The other stuff is good.

They don't bust in, you have given them permission already. This is like signing a contract with a bails bondsman, they can enter your house and you can't sue them for trespassing.

This is what sane gun laws look like in developed countries.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#146

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Veelox wrote: post #136
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Storage laws are super strict, police can and do come in your house to check that you have your gun in your safe. You aren’t supposed to lose it, or let anyone else get ahold of it. Psych evaluation required for those under 25 (to cut down on school shootings), more restrictions on fuller background checks and so on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany

I would be for (and think it could pass) psych evals for those under 25 if we paired it with allowing anyone over 18 who passed to buy guns. We could do better on background checks but the devil is in the details. There is no way police checking storage at any time would pass at the federal level and I am doubtful it would have a noticeable effect on gun deaths but I could be convinced otherwise.

We already allow anyone over 18 to buy guns, without the psych evals.

> There is no way police checking storage at any time would pass at the federal level and I am doubtful it would have a noticeable effect on gun deaths but I could be convinced otherwise.

German statistics say otherwise. I love how pro-gun arguments are always "Ya it worked in country X, but it wouldn't work in the USA because we are third world" or something like that.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#147

Post by Veelox »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #146
Veelox wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be for (and think it could pass) psych evals for those under 25 if we paired it with allowing anyone over 18 who passed to buy guns. We could do better on background checks but the devil is in the details. There is no way police checking storage at any time would pass at the federal level and I am doubtful it would have a noticeable effect on gun deaths but I could be convinced otherwise.

We already allow anyone over 18 to buy guns, without the psych evals. > There is no way police checking storage at any time would pass at the federal level and I am doubtful it would have a noticeable effect on gun deaths but I could be convinced otherwise. German statistics say otherwise. I love how pro-gun arguments are always "Ya it worked in country X, but it wouldn't work in the USA because we are third world" o…

There is currently a restriction for selling handguns to people under 21.

>German statistics say otherwise.

I completely believe that the totality of German gun laws help reduce gun deaths. What I am specifically unsure of is how police checks of storage influence gun deaths. My initial assumption is that they would cause a <1% reduction in gun deaths but I don't have any data backing up that assumption so I could be persuaded that it would have a larger effect.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#148

Post by dllthomas »

raisedbyninjas wrote: post #102
dragonwriter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stabbing everyone to death would reduce shootings to zero. Probably not a good policy, even so.

There are about 800 people from Las Vegas with bullet wounds that would have fared better against an elderly man with only a knife.

The parent's comment wasn't that eliminating guns would simply lead to more stabbings. It was an example of a policy - literally stab everyone to death, first order - that would have the desired effect but where clearly other aspects than "no shootings" obviously dominate.

That said, it's not a perfect response in that it's a logical elaboration of presumably non-literal rhetoric.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#149

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Veelox wrote: post #147
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already allow anyone over 18 to buy guns, without the psych evals. > There is no way police checking storage at any time would pass at the federal level and I am doubtful it would have a noticeable effect on gun deaths but I could be convinced otherwise. German statistics say otherwise. I love how pro-gun arguments are always "Ya it worked in country X, but it wouldn't work in the USA because we are third world" o…

There is currently a restriction for selling handguns to people under 21. >German statistics say otherwise. I completely believe that the totality of German gun laws help reduce gun deaths. What I am specifically unsure of is how police checks of storage influence gun deaths. My initial assumption is that they would cause a <1% reduction in gun deaths but I don't have any data backing up that assumption so I could be…

One of the common argument of the pro-gun crowd is that gun control doesn't work because criminals who would fail background checks still manage to get guns...e.g. they get them from friends or they still them from houses. Or to say "the criminals will easily get guns, while those law abiding citizens will find it hard time getting guns to protect themselves."

Gun storage laws (and smart gun laws if the NRA would allow them) are designed specifically to address that.

If gun storage laws only lead to a 1% reduction in gun deaths, (mostly via suicide via dad's gun), then they are totally worth it. I'm sure the effectiveness is a bit higher than that.

Re: Google maps shows location of San Bruno shooting

#150

Post by dragonwriter »

dllthomas wrote: post #148
raisedbyninjas wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are about 800 people from Las Vegas with bullet wounds that would have fared better against an elderly man with only a knife.

The parent's comment wasn't that eliminating guns would simply lead to more stabbings. It was an example of a policy - literally stab everyone to death, first order - that would have the desired effect but where clearly other aspects than "no shootings" obviously dominate. That said, it's not a perfect response in that it's a logical elaboration of presumably non-literal rhetoric.

> That said, it's not a perfect response in that it's a logical elaboration of presumably non-literal rhetoric.

You might view it as a pointed way of seeking clarification of the argument really being made behind that presumably hyperbolic rhetoric.

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