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MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

technologyreview.com

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Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#61

Post by kelnos »

cryoshon wrote: post #37
zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

MITs statement seems to position themselves to not be at risk if the startup goes south. They seem to think that with current technology it is unclear if the upload is feasible. Also, it would be interesting for someone to comment on how this embalming process is done? From what I know from cryogenic freezing or preservation is that it is a good idea that it could be "scanned" back in but most likely the information…

it isn't feasible. here is why: imagine that we create a perfect copy of a person who is alive. there is now person A, and person B, who are identical. but being identical does not imply shared sensations. if you pinch person A, person B won't feel it. the reverse is true. they're two separate entities, even if they behave similarly. if person A dies, person B is very similar to person A -- but they're not person A.…

All this does is get you into a philosophical debate of what constitutes "you". We don't know the answer to that. There's a similar conundrum around the idea of teleportation: if it were to work by recording the quantum state of every particle in your body, transmitting that information elsewhere, and then simultaneously creating a new copy of "you" at the destination while destroying the original, is the new copy actually "you"? No one really knows. And no one really knows if the answer to that actually matters in any real sense.

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#62

Post by GCU-Empiricist »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #60
Veedrac wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and foremost cryogenics has a PR problem. It is somehow more popular to say that you're glad people are dying by the billions than to align yourself with the people trying to make an earnest effort to stop it (now imagine how fast I would be banned for the same position around genocide). I'm not sure whether this will just further the kneejerk anti-cryogenics sentiment or if it will seem to more normalise norma…

Can you imagine what this planet would be like if people didn't die? How much more crowded we'd be? How much more of a strain we'd be placing on the earth's resources?

Can you imagine a better incentive for off-planet migration and terra-forming?

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#63

Post by s73v3r_ »

joefourier wrote: post #31
Analemma_ wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Resurrection, while not impossible , is sufficiently unlikely that taking people's money while promising it-- even with a disclaimer that it is not guaranteed-- seems exploitative, akin to people promising homeopathic cancer remedies. It is preying on people's fear of death.

The cryonics companies only promise preservation of body/brain tissues, not resuscitation.

The implication is that the preservation is there so that you can be resuscitated.

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#64

Post by GCU-Empiricist »

walrus01 wrote: post #49

If hundreds of millions of people were to do this, what economic, cultural or religious incentive do people have 500 years from now to resurrect anyone? Maybe people who were famous geniuses, sure, but with my view of human nature I get the impression that unless the resurrection process is extremely low cost and easy, nobody will go to the effort to bring back the consciousness of huge numbers of random people. This…

You might enjoy reading age of Em

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#65

Post by ashelmire »

cryoshon wrote: post #37
zitterbewegung wrote: post #4

MITs statement seems to position themselves to not be at risk if the startup goes south. They seem to think that with current technology it is unclear if the upload is feasible. Also, it would be interesting for someone to comment on how this embalming process is done? From what I know from cryogenic freezing or preservation is that it is a good idea that it could be "scanned" back in but most likely the information…

it isn't feasible. here is why: imagine that we create a perfect copy of a person who is alive. there is now person A, and person B, who are identical. but being identical does not imply shared sensations. if you pinch person A, person B won't feel it. the reverse is true. they're two separate entities, even if they behave similarly. if person A dies, person B is very similar to person A -- but they're not person A.…

I'm so glad that you have solved one of the major problems of philosophy and neuroscience in a handful of poorly-constructed sentences.

This is a matter of much debate in philosophy, neuroscience, and other fields. You accidentally touch on identity theory (bundle, substratum, etc), philosophy of mind, etc. The Ship of Theseus is an interesting problem - what if I gradually replace parts of someone's brain with artificial ones, so they are integrated with the rest?

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#66

Post by s73v3r_ »

trevyn wrote: post #17
walrus01 wrote: post #5

For those who are unfamiliar with the general concept, there are several organizations that will be happy to take large sums of money from you, for a scientifically sketchy claim at resurrection at some future unknown date. https://www.google.ca/search?q=alcor+cryonics&oq=alcor+cryon...

The cryonics claim is that they will freeze you and attempt to maintain you in that state indefinitely. Resurrection is a hope, but never a claim.

I don't buy that. The point of freezing yourself is for Resurrection.

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#67

Post by return0 »

mrfusion wrote: post #53

I’ve never gotten a good answer as to how an electron microscope can image the synaptic weights. If you look at the pictures it can barely capture the synapses.

electron microscopy has the resolution to discriminate individual spines and synapses, figuring out the weight of the synapse though is not straightforward. At least for excitatory synapses however, there is ample evidence that the size of the spine correlates with the maturity and strength of the synapse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20646057

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#68

Post by kelnos »

Analemma_ wrote: post #18
aeorgnoieang wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What specific claims does, e.g. Alcor, make that are scientifically sketchy? Just the implication that resurrection might be possible sometime in the future?

Resurrection, while not impossible , is sufficiently unlikely that taking people's money while promising it-- even with a disclaimer that it is not guaranteed-- seems exploitative, akin to people promising homeopathic cancer remedies. It is preying on people's fear of death.

After reading the FAQs and other material on Alcor's website, it's very clear to me that they're entirely frank about having no real idea when or even if resuscitation will be possible. I don't see them promising anything, and I think their website is very clear on what you're getting for your money.

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#69

Post by rococode »

dickfickling wrote: post #56
anonytrary wrote: post #52

> Most neuroscientists think the ability to recapture memories from brain tissue and re-create a consciousness inside a computer is at best decades away... At best, decades away? That's some crazy hubris. It's not even imaginable how far away it is. I find it absurd that humans think they can achieve arguably the highest level of godliness in mere decades. This is almost as crazy as saying teleportation is less than…

> Most neuroscientists think the ability to recapture memories from brain tissue and re-create a consciousness inside a computer is at best decades away and probably not possible at all. Did you deliberately ignore the rest of that sentence?

Yikes, what kind of horrendous wording is that? "it's probably not possible at all but if it is we'll be there soon!"

Re: MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading

#70

Post by makepanic »

Rotten194 wrote: post #6
makepanic wrote: post #3

First time seeing a website checking for private mode: > Hello, > We noticed you're browsing in private or incognito mode. > To continue reading this article, please exit incognito mode or log in. > Why we made this change > Visitors are allowed 3 free articles per month (without a subscription), and private browsing prevents us from counting how many stories you've read. > We hope you understand, and consider subscr…

How does it do that? Do browsers set a flag? That seems like a privacy hole.

Peeking into the source:

  /**
   * Detects incognito/private mode in various browsers.
   *
   * Adapted from:
   *   https://gist.github.com/cou929/7973956
   */
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