Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010) • Hacker News Board

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#211

Post by magduf » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:08 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #207

magduf wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some will take it. If utilization rates are not equal, that's not a reason to withhold the opportunity. I never said it was. However, if it's unpaid leave, it's pretty obvious why many would refuse to take it, or not take as much as is available: they can't afford the lack of pay. How are parents supposed to pay their bills if they're both taking a 12-week unpaid vacation? Health insurance doesn't pay your rent. So…

> So it seems pretty obvious that for many couples, the woman (who generally earns less, and also usually breastfeeds) will take all/more leave and stay home, while the man will get back to work so their finances don't take too much of a hit. Why should that be our expectation? The career penalty is a tax on mothers and a subsidy for fathers. That such inequity is normalized is why "adjusting" the gender gap does not…

When did I say that should be our expectation? I'm only talking about things as they are now, and why current phenomena might be caused by current policies.

I'll also do an aside here and point out that generous (paid) and equal family leave ends up being a subsidy for parents and a tax on childless people, and also in a way a tax on single parents.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#212

Post by klipt » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:09 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #200

_o_ wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it is ok, that you skip it, the difference on pay gap is men having far worse life for those few extra bucks. It is not everything about the money and your path is correct. We (men) are doing it wrong and we are the idiots. The extra money is just not worth it, but we are pushed into craving for social status (which in most cases equals to income, car, house,...) due to the fact that potential mates (females) are…

Interesting theory. So you think if women make more, than men will try to increase the wealth inequality in other ways? I'm curious about that. Alternately, they could also just learn how to validate and be with women's emotions (and their own).

Or the pool of dateable men shrinks as women earn more (for those who insist on dating men who earn more than them). Eventually such women can earn too much to have a good chance of finding a man whose salary satisfies them.

The same happens with college degrees. More women than men go to college. But many women with college degrees want a man with a college degree too. Cue articles complaining about the shortage of marriageable men.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#213

Post by x220 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #143

carlmr wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best way around this is to have education. Especially on topics like statistics literacy (not really just statistics, but how to read them), journalism, lobbyism and propaganda. These things should be taught in high school. Taking apart arguments in old propaganda (where there is less political motive) and encouraging people to look out for new propaganda. Of course it doesn't seem the government would be interes…

> The best way around this is to have education I agree completely, but would education really fix the 20% gender pay gap myth? I find it very difficult to believe that most of the people who continually reinforce this myth actually believe it to be true. They simply can't all be that ill-educated and/or stupid. And yet the same articles appear in the media every single year. It's become one of those taboo subjects w…

>I find it very difficult to believe that most of the people who continually reinforce this myth actually believe it to be true.

That is totally irrelevant to their decision process. People keep repeating these statistics because it's useful to make others believe that women are discriminated against in the workplace.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#214

Post by door3 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

Mononokay wrote: post #156

hackerman12345 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good manager is expected to give an easier schedule to someone who is caring for a sick family member, why would it be horrible to give an easier schedule to someone who has to spend a lot of time taking care of a new baby? Biology has already discriminated and made her life hard, should we make it worse? Should we make having children as difficult as possible for our fellow citizens? Paternal leave is important to…

> Biology has already discriminated and made her life hard, should we make it worse? Her choices made her life hard. She could have not had the child. Biology did not discriminate against her, it gave her a choice. In modern society having children is absolutely a choice, for both parties involved. You can argue that the government should, which, while I don't at all agree with, is reasonable. It's not reasonable, ho…

unplanned pregnancies exist, and abortion access is spotty at best, especially for poor people

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#215

Post by mitchty » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #200

_o_ wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it is ok, that you skip it, the difference on pay gap is men having far worse life for those few extra bucks. It is not everything about the money and your path is correct. We (men) are doing it wrong and we are the idiots. The extra money is just not worth it, but we are pushed into craving for social status (which in most cases equals to income, car, house,...) due to the fact that potential mates (females) are…

Interesting theory. So you think if women make more, than men will try to increase the wealth inequality in other ways? I'm curious about that. Alternately, they could also just learn how to validate and be with women's emotions (and their own).

> Alternately, they could also just learn how to validate and be with women's emotions (and their own).

That would mean unlearning every single thing society tells us not to do. I would ask you listen to this: https://www.npr.org/2018/03/19/594719471/guys-we-have-a-prob...

Humans are emotional creatures, modern men get that beaten out of them. If you're female I'd ask that you talk to some of the men you know and ask them if they've been emotional around women in the past and how that went. This is a societal problem and if we keep treating men as both the problem and the source of their own problem, its never going to change.

As it stands I highly doubt anything will change in America in my generation or the next two at the very least. Until it becomes a problem that can't be ignored this will continue to be ignored.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#216

Post by majormajor » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:11 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #83

mcny wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we should mandate is transparency. We all think we are expert negotiators but we are all idiots. We will all be better off if all salary and all compensation information is public and easily accessible. Sadly, a lot of people think they have something to lose and will never support it.

It would be an interesting experiment. Has it been done before? That could lead to some unpleasant things: * A lot of unavoidable angst as people of less worth to the business are proven to be paid less in no uncertain terms. * More internal strife as people jockey for identifiable rank within the organization based upon their salaries. "Why is Sue paid $10k more than I am? Sue wasn't at her desk all week last week w…

> Eventually, many managers and organizations would just sidestep the battle by paying everyone the same thing based upon easy-to-identify metrics like seniority. As a result, the people with more value to the business will find jobs at companies that pay them according to a better measure of their bottom-line worth. With no one left but the lowest-common-denominator employees, the company flounders and fails.

In most fields, there are already companies which pay wildly different amounts for the same jobs, so the people contributing more in those similar roles are already highly incentivized to leave for higher-paying pastures.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#217

Post by x220 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #177

RHSeeger wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the analysis of wages based on different groupings is worthwhile; as long as you don't try to predetermine what you're going to get out of them. This analysis doesn't show us that woman make more given equal background/education/etc. However, it does provide the interesting information that women (of that age group) are generally better educated. If we take out of it the desire to find out why they…

> If we take out of it the desire to find out why they're better educated (and ways we can balance it out), we're better off. I would argue it is because female-dominated professions tend to have schooling requirements, by law. Male-dominated professions are less apt to. Anecdotally speaking, I was able to start as a software developer, a male-dominated profession, when I was in high school and soon moved into doing…

I think anyone, regardless of training or education, should be able to be a nurse. To say otherwise is sexism.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#218

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

ada1981 wrote: post #205

J-dawg wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best way around this is to have education I agree completely, but would education really fix the 20% gender pay gap myth? I find it very difficult to believe that most of the people who continually reinforce this myth actually believe it to be true. They simply can't all be that ill-educated and/or stupid. And yet the same articles appear in the media every single year. It's become one of those taboo subjects w…

Trump should just cite the studies that show it's not true, but present it as a NEW DEVELOPMENT and thus #MAGA and take credit for it.

[deleted]

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#219

Post by majormajor » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #55

sokoloff wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a "fair" distribution of pay for software engineers would more unequal than it is currently. (This is the logical financial conclusion of believing in the 3x, if not 10x, engineer, which I do.) I have people who work on my teams who are absolutely fantastic and, while already well-paid, probably should make more. I have other people on my team, with the same title, same education, same on-paper responsibiliti…

That only works the way you think it works if most people agree with you. I doubt that... Plus it's really hard to determine who is actually a 10x contributor, even more so universally (across projects, teams, companies).

It's really not that hard to see, on a single team, who's contributing twice as much as who else. You don't even have to be a manager - sometimes managers are the last to be sure, actually. Generally people who complain about lazy coworkers end up settling on a lot of the same people... Being a manager just gives you official venues like feedback requests to realize "oh everyone else sees it too."

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#220

Post by x220 » Tue, Apr 03, 2018, 5:15 PM UTC

aninhumer wrote: post #175

adventured wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is true, it implies we need help programs for the young men who are being systematically discrminated against or otherwise oppressed by society. That includes new assistance programs to boost the rate of college graduation, since young men are so badly falling behind there (with projections for it to get much worse yet). Victim blaming would be a common response, to proclaim that it's the fault of these young m…

An alternative explanation, given the difference in numbers here, is that discrimination against women means that the only women remaining in the field are those who are the most competent and well prepared for the job, whereas less competent men are given the benefit of the doubt, and allowed into the same positions.

Yes, what a clever, politically convenient explanation.