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A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

theguardian.com

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Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#51

Post by dcow »

nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" "Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education."

They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's the impetus of society that needs to change.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#52

Post by ryanbrunner »

cobbzilla wrote: post #26

I love RMS but I'm not holding my breath waiting for any government laws to protect me. For what it's worth, neither is RMS, if you've read about how he uses the Internet. Let's keep building the free software tools so anyone can easily get the level of privacy they want for whatever they're trying to do. We've made so much progress but there's still so far to go. Do not to look UP to authority for hope - look AROUND…

One of the problems is that the software you run on your own computer hasn't been the major source of privacy concerns in a long, long time. That isn't to say that software on your computer doesn't track you, but it's dwarfed by the amount of tracking and privacy issues that you need to compromise on to use the vast majority of the internet.

It's noble and laudable to take the same stance towards freedom and privacy that RMS does, essentially check out of the modern internet, and reduce your web usage to calling wget on a shell, but that's not a workable solution for the vast majority of people.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#53

Post by ABCLAW »

dcow wrote: post #51
nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" " Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education." They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's t…

I mean, they're kinda wrong.

You can care plenty about these issues but not see an actual way to have impact such that your concerns are addressed. If society isn't caring, then either society doesn't see why there's a concern, or society recognizes that atomically it does not have agency to address the issue, and the people who do have that agency are the ones that don't give a shit.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#54

Post by confounded »

fortythirteen wrote: post #43
f_allwein wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the example given here is Transport for London, which is almost impossible to travel without using an Oyster smart card. So yes, pushing for legislation along the lines proposed in the article would make sense.

Would a government that has a CCTV on every street enact legislation to limit its surveillance abilities? I agree that it's a good ideal, it's just incredibly naive to think that it will be achieved. Even if legislation were passed, it would very likely make things worse, in that the government wouldn't stop surveilling - they would just do it even more covertly.

There’s already quite a bit of legislation about how CCTV can be used in the UK.

Our democracies have lots of problems, but they basically work, and on issues like this, the main issue is apathy.

I’m a firm believer that if people are informed and they care legislation like the above could be enacted.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#55

Post by hinkley »

fortythirteen wrote: post #40

Expecting groups of people (tech companies or government) to purposefully do something that is disadvantageous to their bottom line, for nothing more than ideals, is a pipe dream. The real question is personal and harder to answer: "Do I really need this information technology? Is it making my quality of life any better than my ancestors?" The more I ponder this question, the more I'm convinced I could live an equall…

If you haven’t sacrificed anything for your principles, then they are just words.

I think the deeper problem is that we no longer even pretend to value people of character.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#56

Post by gameswithgo »

ABCLAW wrote: post #53
dcow wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting to look at Stallman's tone: he's defeated. "What can be done about privacy Mr Stallman?" " Society needs to care more." It's the same tone JPB had when asked about how the EFF can have an impact on younger generations who take the internet for granted. "They need to care more. And education." They're not wrong, of course. And your comment is very similar: the problem isn't the technology, it's t…

I mean, they're kinda wrong. You can care plenty about these issues but not see an actual way to have impact such that your concerns are addressed. If society isn't caring, then either society doesn't see why there's a concern, or society recognizes that atomically it does not have agency to address the issue, and the people who do have that agency are the ones that don't give a shit.

They mean that the majority of society needs to care more collectively. If that were to happen then there would be impact.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#57

Post by fortythirteen »

confounded wrote: post #54
fortythirteen wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a government that has a CCTV on every street enact legislation to limit its surveillance abilities? I agree that it's a good ideal, it's just incredibly naive to think that it will be achieved. Even if legislation were passed, it would very likely make things worse, in that the government wouldn't stop surveilling - they would just do it even more covertly.

There’s already quite a bit of legislation about how CCTV can be used in the UK. Our democracies have lots of problems, but they basically work, and on issues like this, the main issue is apathy. I’m a firm believer that if people are informed and they care legislation like the above could be enacted.

> on issues like this, the main issue is apathy

Is it? Or is it the notion that if you scream about something you don't like enough, someone else will fix it, through legislation, so you can stop worrying about it? And, of course, that legislation will work perfectly and never be abused or radically reinterpreted a generation down the line.

I'm for the belief that if you don't like something then don't partake in it - short of it being something being physically forced on you.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#58

Post by robotresearcher »

nwah1 wrote: post #30

This seems like such a losing battle. Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed. The cat is out of the bag. Information technology makes this data accumulation inevitable. Likely even for those who walk around with a face covering all day, pay only cash, and don't use smartphones. By doing those things you actually…

> Payments on public transit could become anonymous, but the video feeds would still be recorded, and facial recognition could be easily performed.

In the article Stallman explicitly proposes deleting such video recordings after a timeout, and forbidding facial reco without prior cause.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#59

Post by vibrolax »

tzs wrote: post #50
nkrisc wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that a vending machine doesn't need to do all those things to fulfill its purpose. Dollar goes in, soda comes out. Yes you can make a vending machine do that, but that's not the point.

What is the purpose of the vending machine, from the consumer point of view? Is its purpose to provide an oasis of snacky goodness to those who happen to encounter it while passing through? If so, then yes, all it needs is dollar in, item out. I'd argue, though, that vending machines that are in places where they are regularly encountered by the same people over and over again, such as vending machine in office build…

The vending machine would be a more equitable host by telling Dave that it was saving the last Tab for Carol, and offer the alternatives. Dave could accept or decline. Maybe Dave wants the Tab because he's fetching it for Carole.

Re: A radical proposal to keep your personal data safe

#60

Post by bo1024 »

pwg wrote: post #49
f_allwein wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the example given here is Transport for London, which is almost impossible to travel without using an Oyster smart card. So yes, pushing for legislation along the lines proposed in the article would make sense.

The Washington DC Metro switched over to their equivalent a few years back, the "Smartrip Card", retiring their previous paper with mag-stripe cards in the process. My 'solution' to not being tracked is that the Smartrip Card I was forced to then buy was bought with cash, and has only ever been refilled with cash. So their systems know that card # 828272823 (made up number) has traveled here or there (I don't use it…

Your (attempted) solution illustrates the potential dangers of data collection.

There are many companies with some timestamped location data about you: cell phone company, email or social media, credit card company, etc.

Just a bit of that data combined with Smartrip data would de-identify you as the owner of that card, and all of your anonymity about your metro trips is lost. For example, three or four trips where you used a cell phone at either end of the trip; credit card purchases in different locations; maps directions on your phone; or so on.

This is not far from plausible. I could see the DC Metro naively choosing to sell "de-identified" data to third parties, who can also purchase e.g. credit card data.

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