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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#131

Post by mseebach »

dwaltrip wrote: post #124
tomp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot dismiss rigorous statistical analysis by arguing it can never encompass the full dimensions of the data. This simply means it's not rigorous. See Omitted-variable bias - from [1]: The bias results in the model attributing the effect of the missing variables to the estimated effects of the included variables. For example, including gender but not education or hours worked will result in attributing pay di…

You entirely missed the point. We can never include every single relevant variable to perfectly explain the observation. It's impossible. This doesn't mean statistics is useless. This is the meaning of the phrase "the map is not the territory". All models are flawed, but some are useful.

No, statistics aren't useless, but its usefulness cuts both ways: if you can add one or two relevant variables and almost entirely remove the observation, then statistics tells you that the observation was only there due to omitted-variable bias.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#132

Post by ada1981 »

stdbrouw wrote: post #20
fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

A heuristic in which you refuse to undertake any action without complete information of perfect reliability is always biased towards the status quo. Heck, it's straight from the CIA Simple Sabotage Field Manual. So in the guise of "first needing to understand the complexities of the problem", you are rationalizing away the preponderance of evidence which shows that, yep, any way you cut it, there's a gender wage gap.

In case anyone needs a PDF of the CIA Simple Sabotage Field Manual

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/...

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#133

Post by ameister14 »

oblio wrote: post #39
dingo_bat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want my salary to be transparent. There is something called privacy. My salary is a private matter. I really don't believe I'm any kind of expert in negotiation.

His point is that your need for privacy is preventing group wins. You want to avoid a bit of shame or envy but by making this decision we, as employees, lose a lot of our leverage. You wouldn’t have to negotiate a better salary if it would be obvious that you are underpaid.

It would also prevent raises.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#134

Post by sudoke »

door3 wrote: post #112
fjsolwmv wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employer provided healthcare is insane and is leftover from ecomic-distorting policies of WWII.

Well yea, healthcare should be a right of all people and not contingent upon employment but that wasn’t really my point

Healthcare requires the time and resources of healthcare professionals, and no one has the RIGHT to the time or resources of other people. We abolished slavery in this country, I'm sick of people like you arguing to bring it back.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#135

Post by hackerman12345 »

jabot wrote: post #90
door3 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women are paid less not because their jobs are worth less, but because employers can get away with paying them leas. There are values other than market value. Society needs both nurses and engineers. Women and men should be equal not just in opportunity, but in outcome (ie, economic power). In addition, women are usually the primary caregiver and disproportionately spend more time doing domestic labour (raising child…

> Society needs both nurses and engineers. Yes. And if more people want to become engineers, and if becoming an engineer is easier, then engineers will end up getting less money than nurses. I mean... the more fun a job is, the more people will want to do it despite getting little money, right? > In addition, women are usually the primary caregiver and disproportionately spend more time doing domestic labour (raising…

A good manager is expected to give an easier schedule to someone who is caring for a sick family member, why would it be horrible to give an easier schedule to someone who has to spend a lot of time taking care of a new baby?

Biology has already discriminated and made her life hard, should we make it worse? Should we make having children as difficult as possible for our fellow citizens?

Paternal leave is important too.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#136

Post by fwdpropaganda »

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #105
jwfxpr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot dismiss rigorous statistical analysis by arguing it can never encompass the full dimensions of the data. Of course it can't. The map is not the territory; it is a useful way to find our way around it. Ignoring the map is perilous, if not arrogant, even though it is merely a flawed representation of the real truth. You might argue that a specific study or meta-analysis contains a bias or misinterpretation,…

>You cannot argue that all studies of complex topics are invalid simply because their topics are complex. If you take a random sample of studies you can make a statistical analysis. You don't need to examine every cow to make an argument that there are no pink cows, but you do need to do a random sample. And that's if you only want to meet the highest standards of evidence. Much lower standards can be far easier to m…

> If you take a random sample of studies you can make a statistical analysis. You don't need to examine every cow to make an argument that there are no pink cows, but you do need to do a random sample. And that's if you only want to meet the highest standards of evidence. Much lower standards can be far easier to meet.

Your comparison of this problem with pink cows shows that you haven't given it two seconds thought. Estimating the number of pink cows in the world is a very simple problem. Determining pay gap is a very very complex problem that starts with defining what the question really is and associated fights between different interest groups which might prefer one or another definition, then goes on to the (social, privacy, and rights) problem of obtaining the data, and moving on into with the data analysis itself which is just hellish if you want to have any semblance of rigour, and finally policy take aways from the analysis which hinges crucially on how you defined the question initially.

Stop adding to the noise please.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#137

Post by chemochemo »

cdmcmahon wrote: post #110
cm2187 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that most newspaper are jumping to conclusions, saying that there are discriminations, women not getting the same chances, etc. That might be the case but these studies do not allow to establish that.

If women aren’t having the same access to more lucrative positions or fields that men are, then that is discrimination — in education or the workplace or both. Unless you believe that something about women drives them away from such positions/fields or makes them less qualified in such positions/fields, in which case you are in the Damore camp.

Agreed -- if they aren't having the same _access_, it is discrimination. But once again, nothing in the study points to that.

Do you believe men don't have access to jobs in the field of nursing? On average, women outnumber men 9.5 to 1 in nursing in the US. [0]

[0] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/human-capital-and-risk...

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#138

Post by 131012 »

nerdymanchild wrote: post #78
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Quoted post unavailable.

It's incredible to me that so many Americans consider free market as an ideal. They substitute compassion and cooperation with a superficial version of competition and cruelty.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#139

Post by BeetleB »

Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

>"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do."

If you're comparing degreed vs non-degreed folks, how is the comparison in the peer group?

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#140

Post by burntwater »

door3 wrote: post #69
mrweasel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

Women are paid less not because their jobs are worth less, but because employers can get away with paying them leas. There are values other than market value. Society needs both nurses and engineers. Women and men should be equal not just in opportunity, but in outcome (ie, economic power). In addition, women are usually the primary caregiver and disproportionately spend more time doing domestic labour (raising child…

"Women (or whomever is the primary caregiver in a family or does more domestic labor at home) should be paid more for fewer hours in the workplace."

Why should anyone be compensated anything for routine life-management work? What you're asking is akin to saying everyone should be paid to sleep. Sleeping, bathing, eating, maintaining the home -- these are all parts of functioning as a human. Taking care of children is a function of having chosen to have offspring - I would say it's a voluntary hobby, even.

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