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Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

vanityfair.com

31–40 of 88 posts

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#31

“The Greek people never learned to pay their taxes. And they never did because no one is punished. No one has ever been punished. It’s a cavalier offense—like a gentleman not opening a door for a lady.” The article makes it clear that for Greece to improve this type of behavior must change. But is it even possible for Greece to do this in the span of say, less than one generation?

I can't seem to find it, but I recall reading a piece at one point that suggested the general disregard for government rules in the eastern Mediterranean goes back centuries, to the rule of the Byzantines, Arabs, and Ottomans at various times. The rulers kept changing, and were generally bureaucratic, so people got used to doing whatever minimum was necessary to appease them, and generally ignore them whenever possib…

You can safely add the Balkans and Romania to that group. Although many things work well without a bribe in Romania, most important things, I'm told, do not. The first thing my parents do when they have to deal with the government is ask themselves who do we know that works in that department ? As teachers, that works great for them. TBH, they do that when dealing with private businesses too, maybe even more so, but then I realize that's just how business works.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>5 monasteries said that they evaluated the value of their properties at around 20b of today's euros (this is just for 5 monasteries). You can imagine how taxing the church would pay off a good chunk of the debt So are you proposing that they instigate a one-off property tax on everyone in Greece or just on the monasteries. The reason that 5 monasteries have so much valuable land is not necessarily that they are rich…

The "value" of the monasteries also seems like it requires assumptions about what would be permitted. I imagine Mount Athos, for example, could be quite valuable as a tourist and resort destination--- could make some nice boutique hotels out of those historic monasteries. But since secular development has been banned on the peninsula for centuries, I can't imagine that actually happening. If we assume that Mouth Atho…

> nice boutique hotels out of those historic monasteries

Are you kidding ? That's incredibly rude. How would you feel is someone proposed commercializing in the same way that you hold most dear ? I think this is just ignorance and you in no way realize the cultural, historical, and yes, mystical significance of those places.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "value" of the monasteries also seems like it requires assumptions about what would be permitted. I imagine Mount Athos, for example, could be quite valuable as a tourist and resort destination--- could make some nice boutique hotels out of those historic monasteries. But since secular development has been banned on the peninsula for centuries, I can't imagine that actually happening. If we assume that Mouth Atho…

> nice boutique hotels out of those historic monasteries Are you kidding ? That's incredibly rude. How would you feel is someone proposed commercializing in the same way that you hold most dear ? I think this is just ignorance and you in no way realize the cultural, historical, and yes, mystical significance of those places.

He's ignorant? Finish reading the paragraph!

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#34
post #25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece has a debt crisis. The state borrowed some €216 billion and now cannot pay it. This isn't just some slow down caused by the business cycle that can be fixed by reducing taxes. Tax evasion costs the Greek government an estimated $20B a year. I would say that improving tax collection would significantly help Greece make payments on their debt. You have a big problem when there are millionaire doctors not paying…

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked. What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies. They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes. Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money…

If they are going to be good citizens, then Greeks must not only pay their taxes, they must also take responsibility for fixing their government, reducing waste, and stamping out their culture of corruption.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#35
post #13

I read that as "Geeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Geeks" and was subsequently rather surprised when the photo of that chap came up.

haha, me too. Every time. Probably also very true, someone should blog about this.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#36

Nice that we can still rely on Vanity Fair, the New Yorker and (sometimes) the Atlantic for journalism this thorough. Greece seems insane, of course - but there's always Italy.

Why the qualifier for the Atlantic? I find it tends to have more journalism than VF and New Yorker, which have more cultural content. In particular, the New Yorker will typically have one good piece of journalism per issue, where the Atlantic will have multiple.

Good point, I'm not sure what I was thinking. The Atlantic is generally excellent, too, I guess I'm just not as familiar with them.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#37

Nice that we can still rely on Vanity Fair, the New Yorker and (sometimes) the Atlantic for journalism this thorough. Greece seems insane, of course - but there's always Italy.

The question is: do you convert that sentiment to subscribing?

I ask because the only way good journalism venues can survive in the short to medium term is through print subscriptions, which subsidize their websites.

(For those of you about to level the charge of hypocrisy: I get the New Yorker and the Atlantic. Reading the latter starting when I was a college freshmen has probably taught nearly as much as all my non-technical classes combined.)

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#38
post #34
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are arguing as if the Greek government is entitled at peoples' money no questions asked. What you are suggesting is to keep wasting the tax money to pay for the inflated public sector and all the money wasting state companies. They should first fix the problem, stop the wasting, and then try to collect more taxes. Reducing tax evasion, without solving the root cause, will help nobody, it will just get more money…

If they are going to be good citizens, then Greeks must not only pay their taxes, they must also take responsibility for fixing their government, reducing waste, and stamping out their culture of corruption.

I don't think I disagree with you. My whole argument in these posts is that tax evasion, although very real, did not lead Greece to this mess neither will its reverse take it out. The problem is the bloated public sector with all its related problems. I think fixing that should be the first step towards a real solution.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#39
"There’s no question that the government is resolved to at least try to re-create Greek civic life. The only question is: Can such a thing, once lost, ever be re-created?"

I reccomend reading Machiavelli's Discourses to anyone interested in the particular subject. He has put much study into this question.

To provide short answer - Niccolo believes that once the "civic virtue" of the state (and thus its citizens) gets corrupted it certainly is possible to restore it - but that he sadly cannot think of a single person that would be capable of pulling it of (it is such a monumental undertaking, requiring an honest person to commit some amoral actions - without succumbing to corruption of power).

Thus a more probable course of action according to Machiavelli is - that such a state (or nation) is condemned to "eternal" turomoil and/or domination from an other (more virtous) power.

Re: Greeks are sure of one thing: they can’t trust their fellow Greeks.

#40

Nice that we can still rely on Vanity Fair, the New Yorker and (sometimes) the Atlantic for journalism this thorough. Greece seems insane, of course - but there's always Italy.

The question is: do you convert that sentiment to subscribing? I ask because the only way good journalism venues can survive in the short to medium term is through print subscriptions, which subsidize their websites. (For those of you about to level the charge of hypocrisy: I get the New Yorker and the Atlantic. Reading the latter starting when I was a college freshmen has probably taught nearly as much as all my non…

It's a nice sentiment, but expecting people to subscribe to your print magazine because they like reading your articles online is a recipe for a broken business model. People like good journalism and they're willing to support it, but such support needs to be requested in a logical manner. When non-profits request donations, that makes sense. When for-profit print publications ask for subscriptions, people are disinclined to follow through because they don't actually want what they're presumably paying for.
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