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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#71

Post by kiriakasis »

moate wrote: post #63
lowken10 wrote: post #61

You can't post this! This goes against the liberal narrative that all women are repressed by the patriarchy. You will be tarred and feathered for speaking the truth.

You didn't actually read the article did you? It doesn't really support your "point". If you're problem with other studies about the pay gap is that "this doesn't compare individuals across the same field and isolate solely for gender" then this study doesn't really help your point. If your point is just that you're a dude and you're being reverse discriminated against, why not cite an 8 year old article as your best…

This is not actually an answer to his comment, but to your projection of the politics behind that comment

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#72

Post by icebraining »

magduf wrote: post #52
visarga wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even so, there will be few women relative to men taking the programmer career, it's a matter of personal choice. Women have many attractive choices that compete with this one.

Exactly. If a woman is smart enough to be a programmer, she's smart enough for other lucrative professions that are more social and have better advancement potential and job security, such as medicine (doctors, surgeoons), law, finance, etc. A lot of women go into programming because it's been hyped up so much, and then either going into management quickly or leaving the industry because they hate the work and how as…

If a woman is smart enough to be a programmer, she's smart enough for other lucrative professions that are more social and have better advancement potential and job security, such as medicine (doctors, surgeoons), law, finance, etc.

Why isn't this true of men?

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#73

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

plenty of jobs generate no profit, or only indirectly. How are you going to measure the profit a secretary generates? Or a cleaner?

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#74

Post by ShadowFaxSam »

moate wrote: post #63
lowken10 wrote: post #61

You can't post this! This goes against the liberal narrative that all women are repressed by the patriarchy. You will be tarred and feathered for speaking the truth.

You didn't actually read the article did you? It doesn't really support your "point". If you're problem with other studies about the pay gap is that "this doesn't compare individuals across the same field and isolate solely for gender" then this study doesn't really help your point. If your point is just that you're a dude and you're being reverse discriminated against, why not cite an 8 year old article as your best…

Not sure if you're referring to me or the comment above, but the article does support my personal experience that female colleagues seemed better prepared for corporate life right out college.

I never said I was being reverse discriminated, and in each case I personally observed, the coworker fully deserved their raise/promotion.

Again, as the article also suggests, it remains to be seen whether or not these trends will continue as the population ages and higher-level management jobs become available to both sexes.

"This generation [of women] has adapted to the fundamental restructuring of the American economy better than their older predecessors or male peers," says Chung. While the economic advantage of women sometimes evaporates as they age and have families, Chung believes that women now may have enough leverage that their financial gains may not be completely erased as they get older.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#75

Post by hermitdev »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

> In my mind, equal pay is for people doing the exact same job, and the exact same number of hours, but that just my interpretation. Many will use the equal pay term to advocate for a pay rise, because they feel that their line of work is underpaid.

I'm with you here, but I think you also missed another point: at the same level of productivity. Equal hours at work doesn't mean equal productivity.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#76

Post by fufonzo »

michaelt wrote: post #36
nukeop wrote: post #15

There's no perceptible gap in wages between almost any pair of social groups, provided we compare only similar roles. This has been solved by the market years ago. We still need more wage transparency. Companies should be required to publicly list all wages, because lack of transparency is detrimental to the workers.

There's no perceptible gap in wages between almost any pair of social groups, For some people, that won't be enough for them to say things are fair. After all, if women are more represented among junior positions and less among senior positions, some people might blame childbirth - but other people will blame systematic biases like family-unfriendly policies and unconscious biases.

I assume you meant to include "provided we compare only similar roles"?

Well in itself, I don't think that's enough to say that things are fair.

For example, that wouldn't take into account hiring biases. If women have a real hard time getting jobs in those roles, what does it matter if people in those roles get paid the same, regardless of gender?

I feel the main issue with the gender gap discrimination discussion is that people try to simplify it to show that there is or isn't a bias, and it's really easy to simplify it in a way that would support either side of the discussion. The discussion is a really complex one and there are so many aspects to it that can't be accounted for (confidence in negotiating salary, aversion to risk or working longer hours, likelihood to want to take time off for family, differences in natural abilities, etc).

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#77

Post by PunchTornado »

Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Aren't all gender pay studies like this? When they say women earn 80% less than men they don't take into account qualifications or jobs.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#78

Post by nerdymanchild »

Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

No post body was provided.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#79

Post by fouc »

fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19
mrweasel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

We can use bayesian inference here to update the probability of equal pay as more dimensions are added.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#80

Post by ghettoimp »

magduf wrote: post #49
rectang wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The adjusted gender pay gap is only a couple of percent. This suggests where the best opportunities for improvement lie: equalizing parental leave (so that the parental career penalty is distributed more equitably), decoupling health insurance from employment (to lower costs on business for parental leave), and so on.

>equalizing parental leave (so that the parental career penalty is distributed more equitably) If you mean giving the same amount of leave to both fathers and mothers, isn't that already the norm? Also, offering this is one thing, but getting parents to use it is quite another. Many fathers probably avoid taking so much leave precisely because it does harm their career. How would you fix that? >decoupling health insu…

If you mean giving the same amount of leave to both fathers and mothers, isn't that already the norm?

In the US it's nowhere close.

"The Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993 (FMLA) requires 12 weeks of unpaid leave annually for mothers of newborn or newly adopted children... "California is the first state to offer paid paternity leave weeks (six weeks, partial payment). In the rest of the US, paternity pay weeks are not offered (therefore neither paternity paid leave weeks)." [1]

Of course companies can offer what they want above the requirements, but even when it's offered it's very common for the paternity leave to lag far behind maternity leave. For instance, even for a company like Apple, which is generally pretty progressive,

"U.S. employees will now have a few more weeks of paid parental leave: Young Smith says expectant mothers can take up to four weeks before a delivery and upwards of 14 weeks after and expectant fathers (and other non-birth parents) can take six-week parental leaves." [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternity_leave_in_the_United_...

[2] http://fortune.com/2014/10/02/apple-employee-perks/

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