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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#41

Post by cm2187 »

verbify wrote: post #35
cm2187 wrote: post #33

From what I gather from the article, the study doesn't seem to account for the profession, which would make it as meaningless as other gender gap studies I have seen so far. A banker or lawyer is paid significantly more than a professor or a nurse. So at the end all you are measuring is the difference in salaries between professions rather than the actual gender gap between people with the same qualification and prof…

If men or women are choosing different career paths, that too is notable and worth reporting. Papers can report the gap without going into underlying causes.

Except that most newspaper are jumping to conclusions, saying that there are discriminations, women not getting the same chances, etc. That might be the case but these studies do not allow to establish that.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#42

Post by crispyporkbites »

As other commenters have pointed out, these comparisons are confusing, especially when reported as headline figures.

There is clear envidence for a “gender pay gap” - in that women get paid on average less than men. Whether that is a bad thing which we need to do something about is a different question, which heavily depends on your overall gender role opinions.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#43

Post by jonny_eh »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

> the profit you generate your employer

Ideally maybe, but it's just market forces. How much does an employer want you and how hard are you to get and retain?

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#44

Post by [deleted] »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

[deleted]

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#45

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

Easy for 'mrweasel' to say, safely working as a man without bias to hinder him? Let's just ignore systemic bias in gender pay because, well, it may not be cut-and-dried so just forget about it? I sense some bias.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#46

Post by fwdpropaganda »

stdbrouw wrote: post #20
fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

A heuristic in which you refuse to undertake any action without complete information of perfect reliability is always biased towards the status quo. Heck, it's straight from the CIA Simple Sabotage Field Manual. So in the guise of "first needing to understand the complexities of the problem", you are rationalizing away the preponderance of evidence which shows that, yep, any way you cut it, there's a gender wage gap.

> A heuristic in which you refuse to undertake any action without complete information of perfect reliability is always biased towards the status quo.

I agree with that phrase, and I acknowledge that it's a problem, but you're jumping into conclusions about what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to say "we don't have complete information, so we should do nothing." Read on:

> you are rationalizing away the preponderance of evidence which shows that, yep, any way you cut it, there's a gender wage gap.

No, that's is precisely my point. It is NOT true that any way you cut it there's a gender gap. If you let me cut it how I want it I can have the gap be anything I want by carefully (as an example) picking which of the omitted variables I adjust for sampling bias and which ones I don't[0]. That is what I was trying to say.

[0] And lets not talk about confounding variables, that problem is at least an order of magnitud harder even than sampling/population bias.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#47

Post by [deleted] »

mrweasel wrote: post #10
Malarkey73 wrote: post #7

"He attributes the earnings reversal overwhelmingly to one factor: education. For every two guys who graduate from college or get a higher degree, three women do." It's interesting itself that more women graduate than men. But equal pay means equal pay for people with similar qualifications doing similar jobs. This comparison means nothing to me.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

[deleted]

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#48

Post by JPGalt »

crispyporkbites wrote: post #42

As other commenters have pointed out, these comparisons are confusing, especially when reported as headline figures. There is clear envidence for a “gender pay gap” - in that women get paid on average less than men. Whether that is a bad thing which we need to do something about is a different question, which heavily depends on your overall gender role opinions.

Point me to the multiple variable analysis and the full report that demonstrates the clear evidence you mention. I have yet to find one and I have tried damn hard.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#49

Post by magduf »

rectang wrote: post #14
adrianN wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The adjusted gender pay gap is only a couple of percent. Maybe that can simply be explained by different behavior between men and women and is not evidence for discrimination. For example male Uber drivers earn 7% more than female drivers even though the algorithm doesn't distinguish by sex [1]. Should we force Uber to pay women 7% more to adjust for this fact? [1] https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf

> The adjusted gender pay gap is only a couple of percent. This suggests where the best opportunities for improvement lie: equalizing parental leave (so that the parental career penalty is distributed more equitably), decoupling health insurance from employment (to lower costs on business for parental leave), and so on.

>equalizing parental leave (so that the parental career penalty is distributed more equitably)

If you mean giving the same amount of leave to both fathers and mothers, isn't that already the norm?

Also, offering this is one thing, but getting parents to use it is quite another. Many fathers probably avoid taking so much leave precisely because it does harm their career. How would you fix that?

>decoupling health insurance from employment (to lower costs on business for parental leave)

This decoupling is a good idea for many reasons, but I don't see how it would decrease costs on businesses for parental leave. Health insurance doesn't compensate businesses for having to pay people for time that they spend away from work, it just covers their medical bills. Most of that paid time is just parents staying at home with their new kid.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#50

Post by saiya-jin »

oblio wrote: post #39
dingo_bat wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want my salary to be transparent. There is something called privacy. My salary is a private matter. I really don't believe I'm any kind of expert in negotiation.

His point is that your need for privacy is preventing group wins. You want to avoid a bit of shame or envy but by making this decision we, as employees, lose a lot of our leverage. You wouldn’t have to negotiate a better salary if it would be obvious that you are underpaid.

... which is already massively in place.

at least in EU it's normal that senior dev salary is maybe 50-100% higher than freshly hired junior. Yet the fresh hire can do at most 10% of the work compared to seasoned one, for many months/years to come. Where is the fairness? This is pure socialism, no reality check of reward for added value.

If these things would be REALLY fair, entry level positions would start say 5k, and truly senior/leads/extra talent would be easily having 70-100k of whatever currency you fancy. And this ignores the nice little fact that progressive taxation erases some of this difference, but employer doesn't care about this.

Let's be honest - especially in software dev field, which is currently massively overpaid in regard of other engineering professions compared to other engineering fields, there is really not much to complain right now. If you suck at interviews/negotiations, don't envy and cry for some over-equality, but better learn some soft skills, which are much better asset to whole life than just-another-framework-du-jour. People that are able to get salaries they think they deserve don't complain about these things.

Things can't be realistically much more equal.

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