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Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

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Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#21

Post by kristianc »

fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19
mrweasel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

> Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others.

Surely the right response to a study which challenges your existing worldview would be "Hmm, that's interesting - I wonder what is driving that?" rather than "The equal pay people or groups will always try to convince you..."

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#22

Post by spodek »

camelite wrote: post #6

If we could solve the gender pay gap for working mothers, computer programmers, machine-shop workers, and other jobs where men still earn more, we might finally be able to celebrate equality between the sexes.

There are many issues contributing to different pay. These videos of Warren Farrell address many of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb89YALUzL4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxtu5ZyA048

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzEOXePU_Uo

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#23

Post by mseebach »

kristianc wrote: post #21
fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

> Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Surely the right response to a study which challenges your existing worldview would be "Hmm, that's interesting - I wonder w…

It seems that GP did that, and learned that these studies ignore inconvenient factors.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#24

Post by mcny »

mseebach wrote: post #23
kristianc wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Surely the right response to a study which challenges your existing worldview would be "Hmm, that's interesting - I wonder w…

It seems that GP did that, and learned that these studies ignore inconvenient factors.

What we should mandate is transparency. We all think we are expert negotiators but we are all idiots. We will all be better off if all salary and all compensation information is public and easily accessible. Sadly, a lot of people think they have something to lose and will never support it.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#25

Post by dingo_bat »

mcny wrote: post #24
mseebach wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that GP did that, and learned that these studies ignore inconvenient factors.

What we should mandate is transparency. We all think we are expert negotiators but we are all idiots. We will all be better off if all salary and all compensation information is public and easily accessible. Sadly, a lot of people think they have something to lose and will never support it.

I don't want my salary to be transparent. There is something called privacy. My salary is a private matter. I really don't believe I'm any kind of expert in negotiation.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#26

Post by nukeop »

kristianc wrote: post #16
nukeop wrote: post #15

There's no perceptible gap in wages between almost any pair of social groups, provided we compare only similar roles. This has been solved by the market years ago. We still need more wage transparency. Companies should be required to publicly list all wages, because lack of transparency is detrimental to the workers.

In the UK, that is already in progress - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/06/gender-pay-g...

This is still an incorrect approach looking at incorrect metrics. According to the government document:

>The gender pay gap is the difference between the average earnings of men and women, expressed relative to men’s earnings. For example, ‘women earn 15% less than men per hour’.

But this is not what should be measured. If there's a mining company that employs 90% men working down in the mine and 10% women doing accountancy, then of course the average wages of men are going to be different than those of women, but that tells us nothing about equal and fair treatment of men and women at this company.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#28

Post by vinchuco »

I'm bothered by the implicit authority given to the word "study" nowadays.

Collecting data and drawing conclusions is much easier than contrasting assumptions for the sake of understanding the underlying issues, yet the former seems much more prevalent in public discourse.

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#29

Post by JPGalt »

zingmars wrote: post #13
camelite wrote: post #6

If we could solve the gender pay gap for working mothers, computer programmers, machine-shop workers, and other jobs where men still earn more, we might finally be able to celebrate equality between the sexes.

Do you have actual documentation proving that men in these fields earn more than their female peers in same job function working the same hours?

Even if she did, it means nothing. The only way to assess equality is to undertake a complete multiple variable analysis of the topic. Isn't it funny how quickly we throw out the basics of the scientific method when the results are inconvenient or do not conform to the world view we are trying to subscribe to? I am not saying you are doing that just making the observation that it is clearly what is going on when this topic is "researched".

It is intellectually dishonest to cherry pick the variables that suit the answer the researcher already prescribed before the analysis even began. The entire premise of these studies is laughable until they are done and published correctly. It is not and should not be acceptable to be dishonest in this way though science has began to allow it more and more in order to not be called names...

Re: Study shows salaries of young women 8% higher than men in peer group (2010)

#30

Post by jwfxpr »

fwdpropaganda wrote: post #19
mrweasel wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. At some point the nurses union in Denmark argued that their education was roughly the same length as that of an engineer, so they should be paid the same on that basic. Completely ignoring that engineers spend five years at the university vs. the 3.5 years for nursing school and that engineers are pay wildly different salaries bases on their field of work. In my m…

> Sadly "equal pay" means whatever you want it to mean. Exactly this. At a fundamental level every individual has an infinite number of "dimensions" (in ML parlance) associated with him, and "equal pay" people or groups will try and convince you that expected pay should be the same over a certain subset of dimensions while ignoring all the others. Invariably they will pick the most beneficial to that particular perso…

You cannot dismiss rigorous statistical analysis by arguing it can never encompass the full dimensions of the data. Of course it can't. The map is not the territory; it is a useful way to find our way around it. Ignoring the map is perilous, if not arrogant, even though it is merely a flawed representation of the real truth.

You might argue that a specific study or meta-analysis contains a bias or misinterpretation, but only if you've actually examined their methodology, data, and reasoning. You cannot argue that all studies of complex topics are invalid simply because their topics are complex.

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