Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#161

Post by YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #159

YSFEJ4SWJUVU6 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's quite that clear – however, I think it is considered clear that nicotine is nowhere near as harmful as tobacco smoke.

We currently think that nicotine has a protective effect on the brain. Research is spotty but promising. Google “nicotine protects brain” to get started!

Oh, I'm certainly under no impression that nicotine might not have any health benefits, but with various inconclusive research it's hard to assess the complete picture and net effect. I think it's partly this way because nicotine has been studied quite little disconnected from tobacco research. (It is my understanding that there is indeed no conclusive evidence of nicotine being greatly harmful to health, and I do use nicotine products myself.)

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#162

Post by jordan801 » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 8:56 PM UTC

neaden wrote: post #2

I think it is very important for everyone to keep in mind that vaping is probably safer than smoking. But it might not be, we don't know for sure. And it is certainly worse than not consuming any tobacco product. So trying to encourage active smokers to switch to vaping is probably beneficial, but increasing overall tobacco consumption rates is bad.

Vaping isn't tobacco, though.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#163

Post by vkou » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 8:57 PM UTC

extrememacaroni wrote: post #115

TheBeardKing wrote: post #109

>The 2017 Monitoring the Future survey on adolescent drug use found that 11 percent of 12th graders, 8.5 percent of 10th graders and 3.5 percent of 8th graders had vaped nicotine in the previous 30 days. Of those high school seniors, 24 percent reported vaping daily, which the study defined as vaping on 20 or more occasions in the previous 30 days I'm sorry, but is [1] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact…

Explosion refers to the increase rate in those percentages, not to the percentages themselves. Example: expecting in a relatively short amount of time, say, 0.1% and getting 4% qualifies as explosion to me.

Yes, but what if it correlates with a decrease in cigarette smoking from 15% to 11%?

Sure, there's been an explosion in vaping, but no change to overall nicotine consumption.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#164

Post by miragle » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

corobo wrote: post #146

lemonberry wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think it's kind of a controlled dose thing. When one smokes a cigarette it tends to be the whole cigarette, whereas with a vape you can take a couple of hits, get a fix and put it down.

When looking for this I think it's useful to note that immediately after switching the amount of vaping can be huge. I was actually experiencing nicotine rushes and nausea in some cases when I first started The problem I had was that a cigarette has an obvious stop point - it runs out - whereas a vape will go on as long as you have juice and power. Over the 6 months or so getting used to it I've been vaping it's star…

When I first tried a disposable cigalike this happened to me. I was previously smoking just under a pack a day, but without an obvious stopping point I found myself using the whole thing in a few hours, when it was supposed to be equivalent to a pack. Because of this, when I started using a sub-ohm tank, I only bought 3mg liquids (the lowest available). I could vape it as much a I wanted and it took pretty much constant vaping for 10 minutes to feel slightly unwell from the nicotine, so this worked very well for me.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#165

Post by miragle » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:10 PM UTC

ebbv wrote: post #44

truculation wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but what's the success rate?

The success rate of never smoking/vaping in the first place is 100%. The success rate of quitting is really up to the individual, much like weight loss or other self improvement stuff. But even if it's hard it's the thing you should do. I'm really not sure what you're arguing. "Quitting is hard and a lot of people fail so .. don't quit." That's some lame mentality right there.

> The success rate of never smoking/vaping in the first place is 100%.

If it were, then nobody would start smoking.

This is like saying the rhythm method has a 100% success rate. It's only true if you do it perfectly. Nobody does.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#166

Post by adrusi » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

mrob wrote: post #143

013a wrote: post #107

One problem I think the industry has right now is the "gas station disposable" ecigs, like Blu, Vuse, Juul pods, etc. These things have massive amounts of nicotine, sometimes as high as 30mg/ml which puts the hit right up there with cigarettes. Combine it with the fact that they taste like candy and can be vaped indoors with no ill effects, and its a recipe for addiction. More traditional e-juice can range in nic con…

Seeing as nicotine is a known risk, but the carrier fluids and flavorings are a mostly unknown risk, isn't higher nicotine concentration better? You can get the same dose with less exposure to the unknown risks.

In any case, so little nicotine goes into the juice compared to the amount of solvent that increasing the nicotine concentration even to very high levels had a negligible impact on the amount of solvent. And manufacturers aren't going to put less flavoring in.

I'm not sure of the chemistry in this specific case, but it sometimes happens that adding more solutes just causes a solution to get denser, so it doesn't decrease the mass of solvent per unit volume.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#167

Post by strictnein » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:20 PM UTC

testplzignore wrote: post #28

truculation wrote: post #5

What should the vaping kids do instead of vaping?

There was a golden era about 10 years ago where it looked like smoking was finally going to be conquered. The cessation aids were working. Smoking rates were plummeting. It wasn't cool anymore. It was no longer an impossible problem - people could quit and never look back. Then vaping screwed it all up. I hate the myth - which I assumed is being propagated by the companies that profit off of it - that vaping was a re…

But vaping isn't smoking. It's a similar looking, but significantly different activity that carries almost none of the health risks associated with smoking, both firsthand and secondhand.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#168

Post by dgacmu » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:22 PM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #114

bspn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that for traditional tobacco smokers it is likely a net-positive, and it is potentially a tool they can use to reduce their nicotine intake and even eliminate it altogether. The concern with the latest explosion in schools, however, is the significant number of kids getting addicted to nicotine who may not otherwise have tried smoking traditional cigarettes. The nicotine level in a Juul pod is incredibly high…

> The concern [is] kids getting addicted to nicotine Non-snarky question: why is that a concern? Nicotine -- in the absence of burning tobacco -- isn't bad for you.

In general, there are pretty good reasons for suggesting that people avoid addictions before they're at an age where they'll make decisions about it that they'll be happy with over the long term.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=141164...

> AAMODT: So the changes that happen between

> 18 and 25 are a continuation of the process that starts

> around puberty, and 18 year olds are about halfway through

> that process. Their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully

> developed. That's the part of the brain that helps you to

> inhibit impulses and to plan and organize your behavior to

> reach a goal.

If nothing else, there's a monetary cost, a possible convenience cost, etc., and people should choose maturely whether that's something they want to take on.

(And there are some plausible health risks still with vaping, as others have noted.)

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#169

Post by mrob » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:26 PM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #166

mrob wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seeing as nicotine is a known risk, but the carrier fluids and flavorings are a mostly unknown risk, isn't higher nicotine concentration better? You can get the same dose with less exposure to the unknown risks.

In any case, so little nicotine goes into the juice compared to the amount of solvent that increasing the nicotine concentration even to very high levels had a negligible impact on the amount of solvent. And manufacturers aren't going to put less flavoring in. I'm not sure of the chemistry in this specific case, but it sometimes happens that adding more solutes just causes a solution to get denser, so it doesn't decr…

The user titrates the dose by feeling. They don't vape a specific volume, they vape until they've reached their desired blood nicotine level. 1/10th the nicotine concentration means 10 times the solvent inhalation.

Re: Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

#170

Post by lemonberry » Mon, Apr 02, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

Jare wrote: post #160

lemonberry wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest lie of cigarette smoking: that it relaxes you. When you're a nicotine addict and crave it you get anxious, nicotine fixes that.

In my experience, when I had regular or constant anxiety, the nicotine crave blended with it but smoking calmed both. It is very possible that a non-nicotine method of relaxation would have also worked on both, but those are rarer and/or less quick and convenient. That was one of the appeals of smoking.

Interesting. I should have written that was my experience. Anxiety isn't something I typically experience unless I've drank too much coffee or, when I was a regular smoker, needed a cigarette.

I take it you're a non-smoker now. I wonder how a vape would affect that.