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Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

nytimes.com

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Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#71

Post by qvrjuec »

pdkl95 wrote: post #17
z_open wrote: post #2

In past discussions, I was led to believe we were safe from these devices, in terms of pervasive data collection, because the main processor that was always running was primitive and was only powerful enough to pick up a key phrase. This phrase would power the main processor which would then listen to your query, respond, and then deactivate. But now, as the article mentions, I realize that this initial processor cou…

> because the main processor that was always running was primitive and was only powerful enough to pick up a key phrase That's only true if you're trying to do complex analysis on the device. Cell phones in the early 1990s had even less computing power, but it was enough to encode speech down to 13.2 kbit/s[1] (or 5.6 kbit/s[2]). A simple noise gate[3] would reduce recording duty cycle down to maybe 1% while costing…

So let's assume this is technically possible, and only examine the process under the lens of detectability. Assuming the codec is 8kbps, you'd see roughly 3MB upload for every hour of audio, and I would say it's not out of the question for the noise gate to be active from the television being on in the same room, or music playing. For an utterance, seeing a 3MB upstream would be super abnormal. It would be impossible to transmit all of this data for processing without somebody noticing.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#72

Post by criddell »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #70
criddell wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's shocking about it? For just the Echo, Amazon claims to have sold 20 million devices so they are probably in at least 10 million homes. How many of the people that buy an Echo have been harmed so far? I have an Echo and use it daily for music, weather, timers, home automation (ie controlling lights and fans), etc... I also drive a car almost every day and that has a relatively high probability of killing me. Co…

>How many of the people that buy an Echo have been harmed so far? That entirely depends on your definition of "harm". Those of us who see intrinsic value in privacy would be grievously harmed.

I think the definition of harm has to include some negative consequence. Otherwise you could just say "those of us that are offended by the color blue are grievously harmed every time the Echo is activated".

Even if we accept that sharing anything private is harm, I'm guessing most purchasers of the Echo understand that the device uses the internet to answer queries. How are those foolish people being harmed?

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#73

Post by wackspurt »

peg_leg wrote: post #42

I had a dream that Alexa recognized my voice when I was visiting a friend's house. Won't be long for that one.

That's funny.

I wonder how human intrigues (and the literature/narratives around it) will be affected by ubiquitous computing and networking.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#74

Post by mikeash »

kop316 wrote: post #66
cptskippy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't be willing to put an open wiretap in my home... all of their practical uses can be duplicated with the minimal effort of tapping a screen a couple of times. I've never understood this argument. Why is the portable wiretap in your pocket inherently safer?

Not the Parent commenter, but I can give some thoughts: - The phone is not designed to listen around the room explicitly, more near field, so it can't hear everything. - An iPhone seems to have pretty decent privacy settings (only the app can listen while app is open, etc) - I personally have a phone I can reflash with mostly open source software (only baseband/fivers proprietary), so I am reasonably sure that my pho…

Why are you so sure the baseband isn’t spying on you?

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#75

Post by ConceptJunkie »

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #70
criddell wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's shocking about it? For just the Echo, Amazon claims to have sold 20 million devices so they are probably in at least 10 million homes. How many of the people that buy an Echo have been harmed so far? I have an Echo and use it daily for music, weather, timers, home automation (ie controlling lights and fans), etc... I also drive a car almost every day and that has a relatively high probability of killing me. Co…

>How many of the people that buy an Echo have been harmed so far? That entirely depends on your definition of "harm". Those of us who see intrinsic value in privacy would be grievously harmed.

I don't think there's any way to tell if there has been concrete harm, which is the biggest problem. You can't trust the platform.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#76

Post by ConceptJunkie »

amelius wrote: post #28
ggg9990 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux kernel is the outlier, not the norm. You can’t take a regular runner and ask him why he isn’t running as fast as Usain Bolt.

Yes, but we only need one Usain Bolt to push the boundary of running.

Moreso. If you have one Usain Bolt, he can do stuff no one else can, but having accomplished it, he can't share his ability. If you have a software developer with a Usain Bolt-level of skill, he can share what he creates.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#77

Post by jononor »

qvrjuec wrote: post #71
pdkl95 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because the main processor that was always running was primitive and was only powerful enough to pick up a key phrase That's only true if you're trying to do complex analysis on the device. Cell phones in the early 1990s had even less computing power, but it was enough to encode speech down to 13.2 kbit/s[1] (or 5.6 kbit/s[2]). A simple noise gate[3] would reduce recording duty cycle down to maybe 1% while costing…

So let's assume this is technically possible, and only examine the process under the lens of detectability. Assuming the codec is 8kbps, you'd see roughly 3MB upload for every hour of audio, and I would say it's not out of the question for the noise gate to be active from the television being on in the same room, or music playing. For an utterance, seeing a 3MB upstream would be super abnormal. It would be impossible…

Why would it record continiously? If I were developing such a device I'd use random sampling. Don't have use for all the audio in every home, but a little bit from everywhere can be useful. Can be used to improve the acoustic model of the room maybe, or improve targetting of ads[1]. Some snippets from the minutes before and activation could be especially interesting, to understand the context.

1. Or more nefarious things, of course.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#78

Post by kop316 »

mikeash wrote: post #74
kop316 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the Parent commenter, but I can give some thoughts: - The phone is not designed to listen around the room explicitly, more near field, so it can't hear everything. - An iPhone seems to have pretty decent privacy settings (only the app can listen while app is open, etc) - I personally have a phone I can reflash with mostly open source software (only baseband/fivers proprietary), so I am reasonably sure that my pho…

Why are you so sure the baseband isn’t spying on you?

Frankly, I am not 100% sure it isn't, I am just reasonably sure. I think to do that is beyond the capability of the type of attacker I am worried about. Google/Amazon/Facebook/name your favorite commercial spying company won't exploit it, as they have their apps to do that sort of stuff. I don't think anyone else with that capability (i.e. name your favorite "spooky" government agency) is coming after me. Hence, reasonably sure.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#79

Post by EGreg »

One application details how audio monitoring could help detect that a child is engaging in “mischief” at home by first using speech patterns and pitch to identify a child’s presence, one filing said. A device could then try to sense movement while listening for whispers or silence, and even program a smart speaker to “provide a verbal warning.”

This worries me. First the children are watched 24/7, them the adults.

Re: Hey, Alexa, What Can You Hear? And What Will You Do With It?

#80

Post by soared »

jononor wrote: post #77
qvrjuec wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's assume this is technically possible, and only examine the process under the lens of detectability. Assuming the codec is 8kbps, you'd see roughly 3MB upload for every hour of audio, and I would say it's not out of the question for the noise gate to be active from the television being on in the same room, or music playing. For an utterance, seeing a 3MB upstream would be super abnormal. It would be impossible…

Why would it record continiously? If I were developing such a device I'd use random sampling. Don't have use for all the audio in every home, but a little bit from everywhere can be useful. Can be used to improve the acoustic model of the room maybe, or improve targetting of ads[1]. Some snippets from the minutes before and activation could be especially interesting, to understand the context. 1. Or more nefarious th…

Or record audio, do speech to text, some light analysis, and upload the metadata. Or just upload a basket of words and their frequency, "Toilet Paper, 2, tv, 7, online, 4,"
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