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Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

bloomberg.com

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Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#281

Post by Bud »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #253
egypturnash wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done this twice already. 680x0 to PowerPC, then PowerPC to Intel. Adobe's come along on both of these.

Those changes were all to more powerful processors such that emulating the old architecture wouldn't be that bad. In this instance, Apple would likely be going to a less powerful processors and thus emulation at any reasonable level of performance wouldn't be that viable.

That's not "likely" at all. Apple's CPUs are already faster in single-core benchmarks than the Intel competition, even though the Apple processors in question are designed for mobile devices and have much less power to work with.

Apple would not be making this switch if they didn't think they could improve performance.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#282

Post by [deleted] »

macintux wrote: post #188
rdsubhas wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple developing chips to improve their negotiating position with Intel Not necessary. They only need to ship one model of Mac Mini or any small desktop lineup with Ryzen to improve their negotiating position while still being compatible with the existing x86_64 ecosystem. So no, this is not merely a negotiation jibe. There are definite long-term prospects. We're already moving to a mobile-first design and approach…

> Having those mobile/tablet apps expand automatically to desktop is the next logical conclusion. Thankfully Apple comprises vastly smarter people than me, but I've always thought this is a bad idea. The two interaction models are so dramatically different that I don't see how merging them makes sense. A finger is not a mouse.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#283

Post by Bud »

huebnerob wrote: post #254
bhouston wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adobe has a lot of stuff that works well on iOS. ARM has neon instructions for SIMD. I think they will be okay. Changing over from one SIMD architecture to another is not that hard. AutoCAD isn't ultra optimized for Mac anyhow, it will be okay. This transition may screw up or significantly slow down VMs of Intel-based OSes like Ubuntu.

Your last point may be a bit of an understatement. It's going to absolutely annihilate x86 virtualization on the Mac. Like, I don't think parallels or VMware will even attempt to write an x86 emulator for ARM, they'll just pack up and leave. But the Mac thrived for a very long time without x86 compatibility, and it can do the same again, virtualization was always kind of a happy accident for us anyway.

Parallels and VMWare will just abandon their primary market?

No they won't.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#284

Post by whatok »

flomo wrote: post #196
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creatives who want hardware optimized Adobe apps to continue to be fast will care. I wouldn't count on emulation of vectorized code to work all that well.

Yep, I think people tend to gloss over how smooth these transitions really were. From a creative professional perspective, they were huge short-term PITA until Adobe etc had everything ported over. Also Excel lost VBA support for several years.

I remember everything audio was a mess although I'd imagine a lot of it had to do with smaller developers lacking resources to port existing software.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#285

Post by schappim »

olivermarks wrote: post #264
api wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My concern is that they are going to completely lock down and cripple MacOS and turn it into iOS, making it worthless as a professional machine. The CPU doesn't matter but the versatility and user-centric-ness of the OS does. If they're talking about making MacOS more like iOS I think it might be time to start looking for the exit. A laptop/desktop is not just a portable dumb terminal for accessing siloed cloud servi…

I agree and it's unlikely my next laptop will be an Apple device...

I was thinking the same thing, but Apple doesn't care. Folks like us do not represent the majority of the market.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#286

Post by Bud »

api wrote: post #236
Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

My concern is that they are going to completely lock down and cripple MacOS and turn it into iOS, making it worthless as a professional machine. The CPU doesn't matter but the versatility and user-centric-ness of the OS does. If they're talking about making MacOS more like iOS I think it might be time to start looking for the exit. A laptop/desktop is not just a portable dumb terminal for accessing siloed cloud servi…

I see no reason to suspect that changing CPUs would be related in any way to "crippling" macOS. Those are two separate issues.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#287

Post by Bud »

tinus_hn wrote: post #273
pvg wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does matter that the new processor is a lot more powerful and faster than the old processor. This wouldn't be the case this time.

Intel is dragging 40 years of legacy along. I’m not so sure a new processor can’t be faster and less wasteful of battery power.

Indeed, we have every indication that Apple can already do both of these things. Go look at Geekbench 4 single-core scores for the current iPhone and iPad vs. the current MacBook Pro. Apple is already beating Intel on speed in a design that uses MUCH less power.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#288

Post by pohl »

jimrandomh wrote: post #30

Based on this article, it doesn't sound like Bloomberg has enough information to distinguish between Apple being committed to a transition, or Apple developing chips to improve their negotiating position with Intel. It's also very unlikely to happen on such a fast timetable; given the IP situation, it's unlikely Apple could make an x86_64 chip, and any move away from x86_64 is going to require significant work by thi…

It could be that they are just trying to improve their negotiating position. Even if that's true, I'd wager that it is just the short-term contingency of an investment with a long-term view. I bet they have their eye on the end-game.

When I say that, I'm thinking of the old TED Talk by Amory Lovins called "Winning the Oil Endgame". I feel like there's some parallel one could draw between peak oil and process improvements. Intel has slowed down now that it's more difficult to extract increased performance with each iteration. I'm guessing someone at Apple is thinking about where they'd like to be positioned when the well runs dry.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#289

Post by criddell »

madez wrote: post #275
criddell wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I have a hard time trusting Intel with is the way they have handled questions around their Management Engine. I think they have done a poor job convincing us that it's safe or at least benign. It will be interesting to see if Apple includes a secretive management engine. If they do, then the speculation that it's required by one or more governments will be dialed up to 11.

With Apple's documented interest in owner's control of their devices and delivering the required documentation for it, they won't tell us what is included in the chips and what's not.

Apple has done a very good job with documenting iOS security:

https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

If they included a management engine and produced a document like that, I'd be satisfied.

Re: Apple Plans to Use Its Own Chips in Macs from 2020, Replacing Intel

#290

Post by 120photo »

Stranger43 wrote: post #213

Have anyone checked with adobe and autodesk if this essentially kills the professional mac workstation as a viable product going forward? I have no doubt they can make it fast and usable enough for the naive consumer living inside the bubble of what relatively inexpensive(consumer grade) app-store apps can do and that microsoft will release something pretending to be MS office for a new ARM macbook line, but photosho…

Apple goes where the money is. I'm sure they have ran the numbers. If this makes financial sense I'm sure they are willing to drop the professional graphics market. Still waiting on that new Mac Pro?
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